Tag: Dana Wilson

This week’s guest is unique in practically every way… I mean, to start, he is Japanese with an English accent, he has worked in over 50 countries, has an Emmy for outstanding choreography…and a hair salon, ANNNND his first dance class ever was a Locking class. He is a decorated dancer and choreographer and a budding philosopher, you’ll see 😉  In this episode, we dig into praise and accolades, real life super powers, on the clock culture shocks, and the deep seeded values that drive our work and play.   Movers and shakers, friends and family, buckle up and behold, the one and only… Hok! 

Quicklinks:

Hok’s Website: https://www.iamhok.com/

“Hummingbird and the Flower”:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT3aistRK5Y

Smac episode: https://www.thedanawilson.com/podcast/ep-75-being-creative-idiots-with-smac-mccreanor
Sad Locking: https://www.instagram.com/p/mIE7KwRnOy/?utm_medium=copy_link

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: Hello, my friend. Welcome to the podcast. I’m Dana. I’m so excited. You’re here Wowza. I mean, holy smokes. Have I got a treat for you? This is a good one because my guest is a great one. Hok. Wow. Like many of my guests, Hok is a multi-type, um, meaning he is a dancer choreographer director, movement designer, and a person that has thoughts about titles and genres and creativity. And, oh my gosh, I am so excited to share his perspectives and possibly, probably change some of yours.  

But before we get into my conversation with Hok, it is time for wins. Y’all I have a lot to celebrate this week because Thanksgiving week was bountiful Today, I am celebrating booking my first super bowl commercial. So stoked about it. Shout out to Kansas city and my lovely friends there. Alison and Tyler, and also Becca for helping me get that puppy on tape. I love a self-tape um, so much so celebrating, booking the gig. I’m very excited about it. Excited to tell you more, obviously, after that happens, because you know, a premature celebration can be risky. We haven’t filmed it yet, so anything can happen. Um, but yeah, I’m celebrating, whipping a self-tape together that I am extremely proud of with the support of so many of my friends, um, in a city that was not my home city. It’s good to feel like you can have it together no matter where you are. Okay. That’s me. And what’s going well in my world. Now you go, what’s going well in yours. 

Congrats. My friend. Keep winning. Keep winning. Hell yes. Keep winning. Now let’s all start winning or continue our winning with this conversation with hok. You get a little of it. I don’t even, I’m not even waiting one more second. Just music go. 

Dana:Holy smokes Hok, Welcome to the podcast, my friend.  

Hok: Thank you. Thank you for having me  

Dana: Really excited about this. And like we decided quite last minute to do this conversation right now. And in like one hour, I thought of 75 questions that I like. I have to know the answer to. I’m certain we will not get to all of them, but I’m just grateful  

Hok: 75, 

No, maybe 50, but for real, once I’ve had one question that I was like, um, a very intense root system sprouting out from that. So I’m really excited, but mostly, hi, how are you? Like what’s up? How are you doing?  

I’m good. I’m good. I listened to the one you did with smac actually Gina, my fiance and I, while she was doing my hair, I think smack posts that we randomly saw it and there was, so it was really funny and interesting hearing two people that I’ve known for quite some time, you know, but, um, you know, I felt like on podcasts and stuff, you talk about things you might not necessarily, you know, um, kinda dive into on like a regular he bye, uh, kind of situation. So it was really interesting. Yeah. So thank you.  

Oh, I’m so excited. Um, yeah, I think possibly my secret motive for starting the podcast was to get to know my friends better and get smarter. Like I really I’m learning so much from all of my guests. And even when I do solo episodes to actually find my position on things, I I’m learning so much. It’s the coolest thing. I really recommend everybody have a podcast.  

Um, I didn’t even know you do solo 

Oh yeah, I’ll do episodes by myself, so,  

Oh wow. That’s a completely different task is have to talk to yourself the whole time.  

Oh you know me and my, uh, superpower of speaking. I love to talk. Um, so let’s dig into you, my friend, um, I ask all my, all my guests to introduce themselves. That can be daunting. Um, but go ahead and take the floor.  

All right. Uh, well, hello. My name is hok. My full legal name is Hakuto Konishi and I am fully Japanese blood wise. Uh, I was born in Japan, in Tokyo and Yokohama actually to be specific, which is right next to Tokyo and, uh, my family and I moved to Oxford to England when I was three. And, uh, we would live in a tiny, tiny village, uh, really no Japanese people around. I think there was some Chinese people, but what, you know, just no Asians at all. Everyone was just English. That’s just, oh, you know why I thought the world was the flavor then. Yeah. Uh, when I was 12, a whole family, we’d moved back to Tokyo and um, yeah, I went to public school there. So three to 12, I was completely English, 12 to 20. I was completely Japanese and at 20, uh, honestly the biggest reason that I wanted to move again was because I was afraid that I was going to forget how to speak English because I really never, never used it when I was in Japan. And I thought it’d be such a shame. So I used, um, my school’s foreign exchange program and I came to the states and there was originally going to do two semesters and go back to Japan. But I fell in love with the place ended up staying. It’s been, what about 16, 17 years now that I’ve been in LA? Yeah. It’s insane.  

That qualifies as home.  

 I think so. Yeah. I mean home is earth, I guess. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I started dancing when I was 15 when I was in Tokyo. Uh, it was always a hobby, you know, I was a student first when I came here and I was very Japanese. So you just automatically don’t think and especially back then, you don’t think you could even make a career out of dancing, let alone a foreigner, you know, and I think, um, yeah, I did. My first job, uh, in entertainment industry was a show on Fox called. So you think you can dance, I’ve heard and, uh, yeah, the show did very well. And then I went on to doing America’s best dance crew with my crew and, um, yeah, I think, uh, I was able to kind of go from project to project, uh, one after another, uh, good timing, great people around and yeah, I’ve been able to have a very, uh, fun career now. It’s kind of a mishmash of, uh, dancing, choreography, movement design, directing arts. I just like creating things.

Yes you do. And I am so glad that you do because I love what you create. I really do.  

So that’s um, yeah, that’s uh, uh, I don’t know if it was that quick, but yeah.  

Oh, was beautiful. And there was a lovely connecting, lovely connecting of the dots from Tokyo to England, to LA, to like competition style to now being a producer of your own, your own visions and your own things. Yeah. Um, I did notice, however, you left out from your, uh, dance competition chapter that you are no stranger to winning stuff. You won an Emmy for Wade Robson’s choreography and your performance of the hummingbird dance. Was it actually called the hummingbird or in the  

Flower? Flower on the hummingbird.  

Okay. Yeah. Is one of my favorite things that ever came from, so you think it’s absolutely beautiful. And so you performed it with Jamie, who is, uh, Jamie Goodwin, dear friend. Awesome. And Wade won the Emmy for choreography and then you and quest crew won, uh, ABC. Yes. And you won an Emmy for choreographing, some of the stuff that you did on that show. Yes. Okay. So that’s just facts. I am so curious about that because those are big accolades and that’s huge, tremendous pressure to be so visible. Um, in high demand, those shows are both high stakes and high visibility. So I am wondering what you think about praise and what you think about pressure and how those kind of factor into how you work.  

Um, that’s a, that’s a really good question. Um,  

Thank you. I, that was the first one out of the 75 that I had.  

Yeah. I mean, I felt like, you know, both of those that can work both positively and sort of negatively, you know, and, uh, I think I got lucky in a way that I was fortunate enough to be gifted with those awards, um, without getting so, uh, focused on that, you know, I was more focused on just making some itself. Yeah. I was just more focused on doing the best version of my current self. Like what can I do FSO think how as a solo dancer, what can I at this point offer the most and as quest crew, um, as a group of dancers, you know, what’s the best version of however long, you know, I think it was like a minute or 90 seconds on stage. W w what can we do to make a best version of that? And as a result, uh, people got to see what we did and we got awarded.  So I think it was definitely, uh, it was, it was nice. It was really nice that, uh, we were able to kind of follow our heart and got a little bit of validation, you know, um, from that. And, uh, I T I feel like, you know, sometimes when the focus comes for sort of, um, I have to get that, or I have to do this, sometimes that itself could crush you, you know? So, um, but for some people that could be the motivation to, um, I think it’s a good mixture. I know when it’s competition settings, I’m a very, very competitive person.  

 Oh, yes. Tell me more 

like lifetime, like even as a child.  Oh yeah. Well, the thing is naturally, I’m not really, you know, um, at PE I was really bad at PE in school and, uh, when we would play card games or little games with my dad, when I was little, I would always be losing. And I feel like I wouldn’t win by default, you know? So I was always just so frustrated as a kid. And I, I think work in Canada, then the norm to get why one was just, that was a given. Like, I, I, there was no other way for me. It’s not like, naturally I’m faster at running, so I don’t have to try as hard or naturally I’m good at football basketball. Yeah. I felt like I didn’t get that little bonus, you know, genetics. So I think, yeah. And that definitely helped me, um, for the things I’ve done thus far, you know, for, so you think maybe I wasn’t as, uh, traditionally classically trained, but so, you know, when it came time for the competition, of course I have to work harder, but that’s not, it’s not really a stress or, um, a surprise really. It’s just, if you, if you, if you don’t have it just, you know, work harder and smarter and  Yeah, that’s it. And I think I’ve applied that philosophy to everything I do. And the good thing is it’s, it doesn’t end that it’s not like, uh, you’re not fast at running. So the end it’s like, okay, you’re not fast at running by default. So what can you do so that you can become faster than everyone else? Uh, you’re not naturally gifted with this yet, you know, right now, but that doesn’t mean it’s like that eternally. And I think I really like it, that the only thing that I’m the only person that can change that is you, you know, I feel like the, the, the fact that you, we have the freedom to be able to do that and control our life. I just, I love that.  

Oh, I love that answer. And I love the mindset that, you know, you can stay competitive and kind of objectively analyzing your strengths and weaknesses in a way that might even beef up a strength for you. That’s the majority of other people’s weakness. Like I grew up in a competition dance environment and I, nobody likes losing, like, nobody likes that. I was never the most technical I had, like my shoulders up here in my ears and like very little core strength. I’m still working on it. Um, but I, I did not win often. Like first place was not a place that I saw very often, but I got really good at like, okay, well, I don’t have a billion determines and I don’t have super high leaps. And, and, and, but I really think like that assessment of why people were winning, why I maybe wasn’t and not letting that be the end of it saying, okay, well, maybe I don’t have those things, but dammit, I can perform.  Right. And I think my stage presence and maybe call them storytelling abilities or showmanship perhaps started being like, I was working on those at a really young age because I had the platform too. But also because I was like, oh, that’s something I can do. And it seems like other people maybe aren’t doing that, they were very focused on all the technical stuff. Right. So I feel like I got kind of a leg up and started doing that sort of thing early. Um, okay. So that leads me to the obvious follow-up question. What are your strengths? Like, what are you, what’s your superpower,  

Uh, talking about dance?or in general?

Ooh, let’s go broad in general.

 Um, okay. So it’s funny that, um, I, I don’t know if it will be a superpower for a lot of people, but it, as a result, it somehow ends up being my superpower. But I think it’s to believe that it’s not good enough um, to such an extent 

I wouldn’t make such a good team because I’m like, oh, that’s great. Oh, I love that. That’s perfect. This looks awesome.  

Yeah, I, yeah. So it’s like, I mean, obviously it’s a, it’s a balance. I think that everyone needs, but, um, yeah, for a lot of things I do, uh, I, I always look at what it could be and then I think it’s, it’s never, never enough in a way, you know, and I think because it’s never good enough, I put the work in to make it better. I, I, there’s no such thing as perfect, but as close as I can physically make it to be. And, um, yeah, it’s weird because, uh, I’m able to come up with the quality that I do because it starts off from a place that I don’t believe it’s good enough. So I would add, and sometimes it already is dependent on how you look at it, but I would do a hundred thousand extra coats  

Because before you decided that the base was the best one.  

Yeah. Because I, I dunno, I just believe that, uh, somewhere in the separate alternate universe, there’s another me doing it  a little better, so I have to do it better than him. You know,  

That sounds brilliant. And also like a recipe for disaster to me, like, how do you manage perfectionism? How do you not burn out on really striving to be perfect? Or maybe I guess the more concise question is when do you know, or how do you know that, you know, it’s good enough?  

Uh, the short answer would be, I don’t, I think whenever I release anything into the world, it’s still not good enough, but it will do, um, kind of feeling. Um, I think it helps that I do, you know, in the back of my mind, I do understand that there is no such thing as perfect. So,  

So you’re not like beating yourself up as you went  

Um, no, I’m not. Um, I’m not chasing that, but even with that said, I would want a nice quality, you know? So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s a fine balance of sanity and insanity, I guess,  

Sanity and drive like pursuit. Um, this reminds me actually of a great conversation I had with Megan Lawson. Yeah. But we were talking about a person that she works with often a collaborator who will never accept the first thing. The first thing, no matter what, even if it’s like really exceptional and spirited and, and well thought out and, you know, deliver it, they will never accept the first thing they will ask for. There will be notes. There will be changes 100% of the time. And occasionally they’ll go back to saying, you know what, no, the first version was better. We’ll use that. Right. But it’s almost that if, if you didn’t try for what else or for what further, then you haven’t done the process, like the process of finding the best you can do. Like what might be the first thing that you did, but you won’t know it unless you’ve tried other things. And that rings super true to me. I think there’s a lot of value in that type of mentality.  

Yeah. He just, I think you have to know how to balance it within yourself, you know, because it’s not, it’s, it’s, it’s rough. I won’t play.  

 I’m reminded too that sometimes you, the creator in this case, the choreographer or movement designer, which I want to talk about that title by the way. Cause I love it. Um, sometimes it’s not up to you. There is sometimes a deadline where whatever it is right now is what it is. So whether you think was done or not is irrelevant,  

Which tremendously I am a person that needs deadlines because I need, um, and another external factor that takes it away from me. And you say, okay, this is, this is the value for now. You know, because the thing is, you can keep it unfinished and it will always get better. But the thing is, if it doesn’t see the light of day, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s nothing for what?  

Yeah. Or, or maybe it’s just practice. And I don’t mean to say, yeah, yeah, maybe it’s practice.  

Yeah. And I feel like I’m constantly having to remind myself that, you know, even if it’s 30%, 40% of the potential is 30% more than zero, you know?  

Ooh, love that. Yup. That’s momentum for sure.  

Yeah. You just have to, you know, uh, just deal with it. And the thing is yourself, you’re, you’re only going to care about your, uh, projects and what you create more than anyone else in the world. All the things that you see, no one else sees all cares for better or for worse.  

I think we’re our own toughest critics. For sure. I can’t wait to make something with, you can just see these two opposing forces me being like, I love it.  

That’s great. That’s great. Because I think when I’m by myself, that that character doesn’t exist in me.  

Here’s a follow-up question. I’m learning this even more about myself as I become older and more exposed to other types of art. I have learned that the thing I’m most drawn to in other mediums is a human quality. I love like glue dripping out of a crack or like handwritten things or, you know, like unpolished surfaces, things that aren’t tremendously refined. So I think that translates in my work. It is human. It is, I usually will pick the not perfect pass, um, for the final edit because some of the times there’s something more right about it than perfection. Like that’s what I love. So my question for you, I guess, is what type of art are you drawn to and do you see those, uh, values come through in your work?  

I think, uh, whatever medium it is, uh, when it opens up a brand new perspective.  

Oh then 100%. Yes. That’s your work?  

That’s my cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and it could be, honestly, the simplest thing is, you know, um, Hey, in the beat and the music that you didn’t know existed, you know, wants off, do you that dance piece you’ll, you will hear the music in a different way. Just that is that it’s a tiny way open their perspective, but you know, other things, if, um, oh, you never thought you could see a certain subject in this kind of way or you would, it just like, I think it’s amazing when you can open up someone’s world and their, their entire existence, a whole another layer. Uh, and I just like it when that happens to me. So I think whenever I create, I try to sprinkle an essence of that. So when I look back and, you know, 5, 10, 50 years, yeah. I can say that I’ve done a decent amount of that.  

I would say with full confidence that when I watch your work, I am seeing things a different way than I ever have. I would consider your work like, or when I think of it broadly, and I know that you do a lot, but it looks to me like a living kaleidoscope, like a kaleidoscope made of movement, sometimes human bodies, not all the time. Um, and, and I love, I was not good at, but I love geometry and architecture. Um, is that something that you’ve been good at in the past because you actually have a graphic design degree, right?  

Yeah. I think, um,  Yeah, no, I mean, I, I wasn’t that, especially fond of math growing up. 

That was funny. Yeah. 

Um, I know when I was little, uh, other than like the schoolwork at home, we had to, my mum, my mom taught my sister at night Japanese, and then my dad taught my sister and I Japanese level math, because it was just different than what we were doing.  

Very high level  

That’s when it was higher than, um, than in England. And I, I think for them, they didn’t want us to someday move back to Japan and be that far behind from the same age level. So yeah, they, they wanted us to have the bare minimum and I, and I hated it. I really, I just, you know, cause my friends are just outside playing football when we went to study and I can  Understand this mathematics inside.  Yeah. I mean, I’ve always been a fully fond of art and just beautiful things in general. Um, I can’t, I honestly don’t like, I, I don’t know when I got drawn to geometry, um, I think just naturally from seeking beautiful things, I started liking symetry Um, and then picking up uh tutting I think there was a lot of things in common. Yeah. And it just kind of expanded expanded from there, but it’s really weird because like you say, I do different things and even within dance, I felt like the curiosity and love I have towards the geometry geometric stuff I make is vastly different from the love of have towards the feeling when I do locking in any function, it’s, it’s very different, but it’s just, yeah. It’s like someone saying, Hey, do like, um, orange juice or steak. It’s just very different, you know, you can’t compare it. You’re just like them both. Yeah. Yeah.  

Okay. So tough question to answer. What is your favorite mode to be making in because obviously they’re different, but do you have a preferred, like, I guess if you got to spend your day doing one thing, what would it be? Would it be like a jam, a cipher or directing, designing movement for some purpose? I guess I’m asking you the question that you hate asking, like making the comparison of things that are different.  

No, no. I think, um, right now the 2021 November version of me is, uh, they can make, can beautiful things, just, um, something that’s beautiful that would, uh, that will still have a value. If someone looked at it a hundred years, thousand years from now, you know, um, back height and thinking of that kind of scale and wandering, I think that’s, uh, that’s something I like to do.  

Yes. That’s amazing. I’m so glad that you get to do that. Um, do you find yourself spending your days that way often?  

I think I do. Uh, whether it be beauty or something interesting. Um, I think that’s my driving force behind anything. Uh, if I’m not curious or keen on it, there is no energy or power towards that. You know, I can’t, um, I’m just not clearly not interested and I’m very bad at doing something that I’m not interested in. So  

I feel you, however, I can get interested in almost anything. It is a gift  

That is a superpower  That is super super power. Um, okay. It’s my brain is making this connection and I’m going to try to verbalize it, but I feel like the synapses are still like, we’re still firing we’re in workshop mode over here, but it sounds like when you’re in the mode of creating something visual, um, maybe that’s a dance, but maybe it’s a shape. Maybe that’s a series of shapes connected, um, that your goal is impermanence lasting, some lasting ability and that the eye of the audience or the beholder themselves will have it shift in perspective because of this. Um, because of this thing, versus when you are dancing, there is, it is zero, nothing about it is forever. It is 100% fleeting. Every feeling of every step you take happens in energy is gone and you were onto the next one. And in that experience, there is no audience. There is no perspective to be shifted. You are just being dancing and those are steak in orange juice, 

100%, totally two totally different things. Um, but you were really good at both of them. So I want to talk about, I want to talk about the visceral being dancing part, um, because, um, I’m pretty sure we met in a locking glass somewhere in the world. Was it Hilton Bosch in LA maybe? Or  

Where did we meet during? Um, so you think that is probably,  

Uh, yeah, I I’m, I’m wondering if you were assisting someone and we met through SYTYCD

And what season were you on  

Season three?  Oh my gosh. Work. Cause I, I,   I think I met you. And then I learned that I found out that you locked after that. And then I was like, wait, what what’s happening?  

I did assist Marty think early on, but then he and I co choreographed in season seven, but that was long after we got to work with Jose and comfort. And it was so much fun. Um, but whoa, so intense. Um, I don’t know when it was, but I know that period and people listening to this show who know that was the first time I’ve called it a show podcast. Um, people who live in it really is, it is right now. Cause I’m watching you. So people know how fond I am of locking anybody who had who’s ever taken my class knows that locking is my favorite style period, hands down. Um, because I would say it’s impossible to dance that style without smiling, without being joyful, but I have proven myself wrong. Um, oh, I, while I was doing my, my year of doing daily, I call it doing daily where I made an Instagram video every single day for over a year. I up  Too in that way.  Oh my God, my friend really early, early on. And by the way, it went for way more than a year. I did like over 420 days, but I was counting 

good job.  

Well, you know, it’s funny. I would love to talk about that with you because I have absolutely shifted from that. There are rare are the days that I make a video for Instagram, maybe like maybe like 11 this year. I don’t know. It’s not the medium that I make for anymore. And I think that’s okay. But I do miss the feeling of knowing every single day that I would make something. I love that feeling and I don’t have that anymore, but that, wasn’t what I was going to say. What was I going to say? Oh, sloppy, sad locking. So in one of my early videos, I   Just, I’m going to try,  I’m going to find it and send it to you. I’ll link it in the show notes, we were on the road with JT, uh, for 20/20. Oh my God. Now I can’t even remember if it was future sex for 20/20. It doesn’t matter. And we were at some, at some hotel and I was jet lagged and they had a gym that had mirrors. So I just went in there to gym and I was locking around a little bit and I had this idea that was like, what if locking wasn’t happy? What if it was really sad? And that was such a challenge for me, but it made it like a gap. I made it a gimmick. Um, and it was hysterical. Like every, every up is like a sniffle and every lock is like, and it’s hysterical. Um, so I would say is my favorite style because you can’t do it sad, but now I know you can do it sad. Yeah,  

Absolutely.  

Um, tell me your history with, I would say locking, but I’m curious about all the street styles period, because on, so you think you were considered to be a b-boy, right?  

Yeah. 

Is that how you think of yourself?  

Uh, no, no, not at all. Um, so I started dancing, uh, like I said, um, in Japan and I, I didn’t grow up with dancing around whatsoever. I didn’t even know the existence of any of the street styles. I, my sister did ballet in England, but that was like the closest thing. And I, I didn’t know. I know we liked to watch my parents liked, uh, musical, so I did go up watching different musicals and we would do at school.  

What’s your favorite? What’s your favorite musical

Favorite musical? 

Yes. That, uh, that we did or just like  Everything in the world.  

Oh,  Sorry. I’m totally sidetracking us.  

 No, no, no, no. Um, I don’t know if it’s my favorite, but Starlight express was the first one that I ever saw. And, um, you know, that’s a pretty crazy one to dive into because the stage goes around you, it goes behind and they’re on roller skates and roller blades. Yeah. So it’s yeah. I was just like, what is it’s you know, good. So I  

Think that explains a lot. Yeah.  

Yeah. It was really good that it, I think just right from the get-go it opened up my mind of what a stage performance could be, you know? Cause I think if you go up just seeing it on a tiny box on stages, think that’s everything. Right. And you  

Could tire that pretty quickly.  

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, but, uh, yeah. So in Japan, I, uh, there was a dance show on TV at the time going on and uh, I watched this one hip hop dance dancer, and I was just, was just so blown away. It was nothing like anything I’ve seen before. I was like, I don’t know. I don’t know what that is, but I  I need to, I need to do that, but I didn’t have any friends that dance so. I didn’t know of any studios. And it wasn’t like now where you Google it and anything just  pops up. So I think just for a year, I continued just watching that TV show and trying to, you know, trying to copy it. And then a year later on the show, they talked about that studio, uh, which was pretty close to me. So I decided to go the next day. And uh, I said, yeah, I want to, I saw it on TV. I want to do hip hop. And, uh, that day, uh, the, the personnel studio was like, oh, we only have a locking class today. And I don’t know the difference. So I was like, okay, I’ll take that. And that’s how I started locking.   

Literally your first fucking dance class. Yeah, yeah. Having to brace myself, this is the coolest thing I’ve ever heard. Oh my God.  

So, and I didn’t really know much. I think I went into it one in like different other hip hop styles too, but then it was like, okay, I’ll, you know, Vegas can’t be chooses. So I just took what, what was available. And then, uh, I think for the first, let’s say maybe two, three years, I just did locking. And then I did, uh, hip hop. And then, uh, I think after that went into braking and then I joined a b-boy crew in Japan, and then I was doing that, uh, for a couple of years. And then after that, I, uh, yeah, I, I asked during, so you think it just opened my brain up to all these different styles and, uh, yeah, I don’t even at that point, you know, um, I felt like as a TV show, you have to label them, oh, is it just temporary? You know,  

And I dislike the most about this  

And I, and I get it for TV and for, you know, regular people that don’t understand dance. It’s just so much easier to understand and categorize people that way. Um, but yeah, it was just like a mish-mash, uh, but also get an exposure from TV. Uh, there’s a lot of, um, kind of hate, might be a strong word, but you know, there’s a lot of opinions that are like, oh, he’s not a baby boy. He’s not a lock it, all these, but the thing is, I don’t think I really cared that much for it. And it was like, sure, if, if, if it’s not breaking fine where you can, you can call it whatever, but I’ll just do me. And then, uh, even when we did quest, it was like the same thing. And I’m sure, you know, um, different people have, uh, the different, uh, drives and the reasons why they dance and culture, they protected their own perspectives. So, uh, yeah, definitely nothing against any viewpoints. We were all just different. And you have your own justifications. Uh, yeah. Even with quest, it was like, oh, but they’re not doing this. Or when we started activism stuff, it’s like, oh, that’s not dancing. I’m like, okay, that’s fine. It’s not dancing. It’s, um,  

Movement designing instead of choreography or what is the, what’s the deciding?  

Uh, I’m sure there was a lot of factors, but that was definitely one of them where it’s like, oh, that’s not the answer. And that’s just making shapes and it’s like, sure. Yeah. Like, yeah, possibly agree. So let’s not call it out, but is it dope? Yep. That’s it? Yep. If it is, yes. Then let’s just move on. And I feel like, um, for me personally, because I do like to continuously push the boundaries, I think it’s such a shame when, uh, the end products gets limited because of the title or the category, you know, I think it should be the other way round it’s it should be the, the main focus is how can we make something better and how can we up the quality? Uh, and I think for me, that’s my way of respecting all the people that came before us, you know, cause I think if you’re not  

Eventually  

Exactly, exactly. And I think in a short span, short, it could survive. But if you look at it in the long run, it’s gonna, it’s gonna rot and it’s going to disappear. And I feel like that’s, that’s the most disrespectful thing you can do to all the people that came before us. So I think the only way to do it is figuring out how to up the game, you know? So I think because I’ve had that mindset, uh, I’ve never been a strong advocate for titles, whether it start styles or what I do, I might be a little too flexible with that. It’s like, are you a dancer? I don’t know. Uh, I can I now? Yes. Um, are you a choreographer? I mean, I can, but yeah, I used the active,  

I think my identity, well, that sounds like, that sounds like another superpower. I mean, any strength, overused might become a weakness for sure. But it sounds like an asset that you’d be able to think about yourself and what you’re capable of more fluidly versus immediately putting yourself into a box and, and what you do, right. Like with the lid screwed on tight and all neaten consolidated, then yeah. The opportunity to expand or to grow is not, is not as high. Um, I love this. It also brings up again the idea of balance, which this is what everything always becomes about. And every podcast I walk away like, oh yeah, balance. Right. A little bit of that a little bit, but I’m like, there is value to the purist, right. There is value to the person who’s like, that’s not what it is or what it was about at the beginning. Yeah. And like hearing that and being like, Hmm, I understand that perspective. And whoa, thank you for reminding me and sharing what the origins are. I think it’s important. Yes. And okay. What next and where, where do we go from there? Because yeah, I think especially in street styles, they were not created to be the same forever. I don’t think anybody like stepped into a psych cipher thinking, this is the way it should always be done forever. Right, right, right. And so  

 It’s like, they both have to coexist to, you know, and it’s like, you need the historian that will preserve the history and tell the story of how it was. And there’s all these bits and in between, and then you have this end of  

The revolutionary side, the innovator.  

Right. But I feel like it has to both co-exist uh, to have the true value is what I believe in.  

I love your mindset about that. I’m going to, I’m going to adopt that for my own. Yeah. And I’m going to pretend that it was mine all along. Okay. So I do, I have several more questions, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna try to wrap this up with somewhat of a burnout round. Oh, wait. Before the burnout round one more. This one, this question is coming from someone within my words that moved me community. I had just before this interview, I was coming from a thanks sharing where we’re not going at Thanksgiving. It was a sharing of wins and gratitude for each other. Um, and I let them know that I would be talking to you and I had someone ask, what should I ask, talk about? And they asked, yeah, brilliant. I swear everybody should have a podcast. I’m a brilliant question about knowing how internationally you work.  Like you work all over the world and work with different people all over the world. And, um, I, I suppose I would love to hear what have you to say about different worth work ethics in different places without doing the overgeneralization thing, which I, I do all the time I try not to do. And I know that we’re all unique and cool, but it’s rare that it’s rare that a person get to do their thing all over the world because usually their thing is tied to a specific part of the world, but Dan’s being such an international thing. Um, yeah. I’m so curious. I thought that was a great question. I’m curious about what you’ve learned about how people work in different places.  

Um, I think one that stands out is, uh, I got to work on a show called strict dance of China, the past three seasons in Shanghai. Uh, and the first season I was so stressed, uh, because, uh, the difference in culture and the idea of taking a pre existing thing and just, um, copy and paste in, it was, uh, there was not even an ounce of guilt or a bad thing at all. And I can understand that because I feel like coming from my background, it made no, like it made no sense, you know, the, the, it was just your duty to be original and pro, you know, provide something new to the scene. And that’s kind of how you stand out and ciphers old bowls or anything competitions. But I completely, uh, didn’t understand that in the beginning. I do understand that if you’re born and you grow up in a culture in a society that everything around you, um, from food to clothing, to all the businesses, the model is taken a preexisting, something and then mass producing it.  

Why wouldn’t you think that’s the norm of everything? You know? So I think it took a while for me to understand that, oh, and I was really surprised because like you said, I, you know, growing up, I’ve traveled a lot with work. I’ve traveled a lot. I didn’t think in my mid thirties I would have a major culture shock, but I did. And it was really eye opening. I think I posted a series of it, uh, on my IgE story. Um, I think I saved it, but because it was such a stress stressful yeah. Eye opening experience. But yeah, it wasn’t a that until that point that, you know, I even realized, and I humbled myself that, oh my norm, isn’t the universal norm. And you have to understand that, you know, it’s, it’s one way of looking at things, but just as strong as you have your core, someone else might have that too. And I think, um, I think it’s important to respect the differences. You know, you don’t have to agree with it, but just, uh, kind of understanding that that exists. And I think, yeah, uh, just trying to push your views to someone else, like if it matches great, but you have to understand they’re not you. So I think,  

And just the material that you are working with is not a great use of time and energy.  

Right. Right. And I think it’s a, you know, um, the first thing you want to do is that, you know, because I felt like doubting, uh, and taken apart, all these beliefs that you believe is true. I think it’s people don’t do that by default because it makes you worried. It kind of crumbles your world that you believe in. But the thing is, if you can do that once and still be stable with it, I think it opens up your world and you have a better understanding of, of just people in general. That’s how I honestly feel like the best way for anyone is, uh, w I mean, whether it be physically or virtually, however it is, but to see different cultures or just, you don’t have to do anything, go to the other side of the earth and see the people there and  

Just literally open your eyes.  

Yeah. Cause the thing is your, your tradition and your basics could, you know, it’s probably fine with the area that you live in. You go completely different. And even just like what people eat, what they do when they wake up, how they stand, how they sit, you know, those things you can to, I feel is gonna open up your mind. And I feel like that is the way to understand more people. And I feel like a lot of arguments happen because that doesn’t happen. You’re not able to see things from their way. Yes.  

Oh, thank you so much for adding that. And thank you, Rachel, Gail tan for asking that question. So cool. Um, I love that. Okay. Feels like that was really beautiful and poetic, and this has got to be jarring. So buckle up  

Everybody though. Rapid fire questions.  

Ready? So try to be quick. All right. Okay. I know I’ve already asked you, I’ve already asked your biggest, your greatest strength. And I want to know what is your greatest weakness go? And you can say for take turns. It is mine. It is my greatest weakness.  

Uh, greatest weakness is a laziness by default. I’m not naturally very lazy.  

I don’t believe you, but work. Um, what is a book that changed the game for you?  

Ooh, uh, uh, so it’s a Japanese book called , which translates to gymnastics of the mind. And it’s basically a series of, uh, these like riddles and quizzes. Uh, there’s like maybe like a hundred, 150, uh, for one book. And, uh, my dad kind of liked those puzzles. So I think I got introduced to that early in my teens and that opened up my mind, like crazy.  

I love that. Okay, awesome. Um, what is the name of your favorite playlist on Spotify? And is it public because I want to go listen to it.  

Oh,  

And are you a Spotify person? I might have just made a huge assumption about your moral fiber?  

A hundred percent. I mean, is there anyone that says no to that?  

Oh, I do know. I do know iTunes, radio, apple radio people. Anyways, I can’t stand iTunes or anything about it, period. It makes it, you know, this about me enraged. I am actively pissed when I think about,  

Yeah. I mean, I felt like I don’t do that many subscription stuff, but Spotify, I feel like you, yeah, you can’t live without it, but I have a, um, a Spotify playlist called Gulmay funk and I basically, it’s  Basically butter it’s,  It’s like random funk beats that I find. Uh, and they always changes, but like that would feel good to listen to while you’re cooking. Um,  

Yeah, that makes sense. 

It’s kind of like the excitement of the funk and the excitement of what you’re making. It just like feels good to you.  

Love that. Um, is it public? Cause I’m going go try, find that  

It’s not, I will figure out how to make it public. Okay.  

Do that. Um, okay. Everyday carry or EDC. It’s a big, popular thing on the internet, but I think you are a very technical, capable person. Um, and I’m so curious. What are the things, the tools that you use and have with you on a daily basis?  

Oh, just tool. Just my phone. Okay.  

Yeah. Phones have really changed the game. I mean,  

Yeah, it has. I mean, it’s a phone, but I mean, I felt like the least thing you could do with it is call someone. So it’s, it’s just like a little computer in it.  

Yeah. Okay. Well then, um, talk me through a perfect day.  

Perfect day. Uh, okay. Um, oh, where shall I go? Okay. I’ll wake up, uh, Greece, I think Greece or have a breakfast, um, on the balcony. Sunny you the ocean, maybe we’ll go for a little bit of swim. Uh, I mean, I think we’ll go on the plane, but ideally we can teleport. That would be much nicer.  

Yeah. That is a perfect case. Zero in transit.  

Yeah. If we can just like click and then maybe we’ll go to Barcelona, um, or have a little hot chocolate and chiro while I read or draw or think of some weird ideas. Maybe make some stuff, get lunch. Um, I’ll probably stop by Japan. Say hi to my parents. Uh, magically my sister and her family they’re in DC, but they can be there too, for sure.  

Especially if there’s like portals and stuff. Yeah,  

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I think we’ll, we’ll have some kind of Japanese food. Uh, what should I do  

Obviously? How lucky was I to get to witness Brilliance? The nonstop theater? I felt like genuine theater,  

So funny and sad that that’s just, that’s just our default, you know? And it’s not like we do that every, every other week or like maybe not them some but Korean barbecue or some kind of meet up and yeah. It, the energies it’s always like that. It just like how you experienced.  

Yeah, man, it makes me very, very excited, but sorry. I crept into your perfect day. Keep going. Yeah. It’s gotta be like 5:00 PM now.  

5:00 PM. Okay. So I think what was the best boss? I want to find, you know what, I don’t know what country, what city, but I want to go to this new place I’ve never been to. That has an amazing bath. I actually took a Megan loss. I love it.  

Oh my gosh. Yes. I was just going to say megan Lawson is like the bath Baroness. She’s the quiet  

Honestly, I would love to make a community that just seeks out beautiful boss around the world. Uh, just to do that, you know,  

My brain is already working on pun titles for that, but none of them are funny enough to say  

Yeah. And  

Maybe with, with the bath, I guess  

I like, I liked the time, uh, with, um, that we, we get to spend my fiance and I get to spend without dogs. I think we’ll end up coming back to LA keeping it chill. Um, yeah. So basically traveling to different places, eating different things, making it,  

I think about thinking about beautiful things, making beautiful things. Oh  

Yeah. But  Beautiful  Places. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess I get to live a version of that now. I just, if I, if it can be a little bit more instant, that will, that will be really. Yeah. That’ll be nice. That will be very nice. Yeah. So if any airline companies are listening to this and you have a technology while you’re waiting for,  

You know, oddly enough on my zoom call that it was just on earlier, my niece who is seven and a half important thee and a half part is very important to her. Um, she said, I think it was before anybody else came down, came down. Yep. Sticking with it. Um, she said, you know, if I had a superpower, it would be to create portals so I could be there with you and  

Let’s  Go. So portals, portals on the brain, in the sweetest thing. Um, she also kept track of the number of times that I swore. And she decided that every for every time I swear I have to come home and visit.  

Oh, well that’s yeah. That’s, that’s nice.  

Yeah. Racked up three, three visits to Denver. So yeah, if we could make a portal, that would be great. Really helped me save time on travel days. Um, okay. Well, there’s still several things I want to talk to you about, but I’m just going to go ahead and file this on what is again, someday. Um, okay. I am so grateful for your time. So glad to get, to dig a little deeper into this. Like yeah. I think you’re a person who is exquisite at changing perspectives, shifting perspectives, even your own, but especially, um, an audience persons. So I, my perspective shifted several times in this conversation. Thank you. I’m so grateful.  

Thank you. And I honestly, I feel like we’ve just barely grazed.  

Yeah, for sure. We’re scratching the surface. Well, we, we can be friends for a really long time. We can make stuff. We can lock. We can talk. We can lock and talk. Oh, there’s a talk show idea.  

The whole time. Just lock in the whole time.  There’s nothing you can say without locking it.  

 If you want to  

 Spell me, like you have to walk.  

Oh my God.  Okay. So we’re going to do that. I’m looking forward to that. Thank you again so much for being here. Uh, I’ll talk to you soon.  

Yeah. All right. Bye.  

Dana: Well, my friends, what do you think? I think this is one of my favorite episodes, man. You know what, actually, instead of trying to recap this one, you know, collect all my favorite moments. I think I might just use that time and go back and listen to this immediately right away right now. Uh, you can join me if you’d like, or you can not totally up to you, but you should probably download this one to keep it at the ready. Um, you should download all of them just for funsies and you should also certainly get out there and to keep it exceptionally funky. Thanks for listening. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye 

Outro: Me again. Wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating or review. Here’s your words. Move me to number two thing. I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit  dot com for links to free workshops. And so, so much more. All right, that’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

Today’s guest means BUSINESS, and she’s been in it for 26 years.  She got a late start (relative to most dancers) but it seems like there’s nothing she hasn’t done: films, tours, TV, TWO Super Bowl halftime shows, and her very own training program Lipstick Diaries. The great thing about Jessica is that it seems she is only getting started. This episode holds so many golden nuggets of business wisdom, tons of social media best practices and  guide rules. I think anyone who is interested in being a long-lasting career will benefit from this episode, but especially those starting out and picking up momentum. ENJOY!

Quick Links:
Jessica Castro on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iliajessicacastro/

Lipstick Diaries Website: http://www.lipstickdiariesnyc.com/

Transcript:

This episode is NOT an A-Z glossary of camera and film terminology.  It IS a deep dive into  why “film speak” is important for dancers and choreographers… and also why it is a total set up.  Yes, I’ll demystify a few of the basic terms and technicalities, but I also dish out some of my favorite resources for a deeper dive on jargon, and I zoom in on (sorry, couldn’t help it) a few simple cues you can take from the camera to better craft your performance on screen.

Quick Links:

Every Frame a Painting: https://www.youtube.com/c/everyframeapainting

Team DeakinsPodcast: https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/

Protecting the frame Podcast: https://www.protectingtheframe.com/

100 ideas that changed film: https://www.laurenceking.com/product/100-ideas-that-changed-film-2/

30 second film photography:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25026033-30-second-photography

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight, but don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: Well, hello, my friend. And welcome to Words that Move me. I’m Dana. And as always, I am stoked that you are here. This is going to be fun. As we’re speaking, I am monitoring my pitch using a, um, pitch monitoring app. My vocal recovery is slow, but sure. And I am. I’m working to use all the tools available to me to fully recover as quickly and fully as possible. So forgive me if I’m a little bit distracted, I’m fascinated watching this little device record my voice, move up and down. Okay, moving right along. I’m excited about this episode because the subject came up in a words that move me community conversation recently. Um, somebody asked for the best resources for film terminology. They had never worked with film before. Um, and by film, honestly, I, I actually mean video, um, should be more specific with that language since this is the camera and film terminology episode. Um, but I, I started writing a response to this person who asked for some tips, pointers, vocabulary, et cetera, started writing this massive reply of an email, all of the words, all of the definitions. And I had to stop myself. This is a person who has not worked with dance on film before, and I was completely intimidating them, I think with this metric boat load of jargon. So I deleted my massive body of text and instead gave this person my very best advice, which is to have a clear vision in mind and be able to explain it with words or with other images and video references, and then be ready and willing to learn as you go. I encourage you to the same attitude. Throughout this episode be ready and willing to learn as you go heads up. I am not going to read a film or photography glossary to you in this episode. So if that is what you are here for, you can 100% do that faster and have the bonus feature of pictures and video examples. Um, you can have all that quickly by doing that Google search yourself. Actually I think a podcast might not be the most natural place to teach camera terminology because those visual aids are so important. So towards the end of this episode, I’ll give some of my favorite resources. But what I really want to dig into today is why “film speak” in quotes is important and also why it is a trap. I will try to stay focused, see what I did there focus. Um, and I will try to hold off on the puns, but I will not hold off on the pans and tilts. Okay, I must stop. I will stop. 

Let’s do wins. Yay. Here at the top of the episode, um, my win today is that this evening I’m going to see LA’s very own body traffic. I have a few friends on the company, super shout out, Joe Davis, Tiare Keeno. So excited to see you perform. And of course the creative director, Tina Finkelman Berkett. Tina is a long time friend and Ooh, she’s gotta be coming on the podcast here soon in the future that just got real. Tina it’s official. I mean, it’s not official yet, but it will become all right. Anyways, I know that as Broadway is opening back up, theaters, opera houses shows in general are opening back up. Um, I am probably not the only one with a win like this right now. And I hope that if you don’t have a live show on the books on your calendar, maybe this month that you think about doing that, um, if you’re comfortable going out in the world right now or ever I’m saying that also to my future audience, trust me, I am feeling the home life. Oh, wow. I told you I would try to stay focused and look at what’s happened. Okay. Now it’s your turn. Tell me what’s going well in your world. What are you celebrating today? Hit me.  

Okay, great. Congratulations. I’m so thrilled for you. Glad that you’re winning. Keep winning. Now let’s dig into this. We’re going to start by talking about why it is important for a dancer and a choreographer to understand camera and film terminology. I’m just going to put on my obvious Oscar Grouch, obvious Oscar Pants, obvious. What are some other O names? Olivia or O’Ryan? Anyways, this first one might be quite obvious, but understanding what the director and the choreographer are saying is a plus. Speaking the same language so to speak helps you work well and quickly, it definitely speeds up the process when people can explain what they want in a few words, instead of in several phrases. It helps when people can ask for what they want, instead of have to teach what they want. So that’s an obvious one. It helps you work well, and it helps you work fast to understand what people around you are saying, boom. Now this next point might also be obvious, but I’m going to dig into things from a movement perspective for a couple minutes here. These are a few of the ways that a dancer can and probably should take cues from the camera to craft their performance. 

First let’s talk scale, performing for a closeup and performing for a wide shot are very different things. The smallest perceptible movement in a close-up is really small. Like a micro movement is, is it’s small, but you can see it versus the smallest perceptible movement in a wide shot is significantly bigger, big, like sometimes large. So knowing the framing of the shot is extremely helpful when crafting your performance in terms of scale, I will call upon the opening scene of La la land as an example. I am a woman in blue getting out of a rusty kind of reddish colored car towards the beginning and the expression I have on my face, which is of course, you know me, quite cheerful. Um, in that beginning moment, like in the first verse ish versus the expression on my face during the final chorus, when the camera has pulled away, way, way back and up like the face I was making and the scale at which I was moving in those final moments of that opening scene would look actual nuts, like crazy nuts in a closeup. If the camera had been close up on my face and body, in those moments, it would have been a horror film. It would have been a scary movie. So that’s scale. The importance of crafting your physical energy in relationship to the frame period. 

Now I want to talk about, um, a phrase that I made up it’s called oops tolerance to me, ‘Oops Tolerance’ is a performer’s ability to mess up and keep going without anyone else knowing. Note always, always, always, always, always keep going until you hear the word cut, no matter what the camera is doing or what you think the camera’s doing, no matter how bad you think you messed up, keep going. We’ll talk about that more in a second, relating to the camera or specifically the framing of the shot. My oops tolerance goes way up. In other words, I get way more relaxed, way more confident, less stress, less pressure on my physical dancing. When I know we’re shooting a close-up like head and shoulders or even a cowboy shot, which means from the knees up or a mid shot from the waist up. Um, I know that in those cases, if I mess up my foot work, it really doesn’t matter unless I show it on my face. The opposite can also be true. If we’re shooting a closeup on my hands, for example, it’s okay that my expression is super concentrated or that my lips are pursed in, in focus.  Focus again. Um, or that my lips are chapped for that matter. Awareness of the frame helps you focus your attention on the part of you that will be getting most of the attention. Again, this is kind of obvious stuff, but I really don’t think most dancers know what is in the frame when we start moving. And if for no other reason than your oops tolerance, it can absolutely be helpful to know that information. Before I move on, I really do want to underline keep going. You might think your flub has ruined the shot, but you’d be surprised how useful even a really bad take can be. Movie magic is real. I think we mentioned during the, um, in the Heights choreography team podcast episode, I think we talked about this. It was fully raining while we shot some of 96,000, which is the pool scene from In the Heights. Um, it was actually fully nighttime for some of those shots and truth be told I shutter when I hear the words, we’ll fix it in post because I have been the one trying to fix it in post and that ain’t fun. Um, but you really would be surprised to see and hear how much can be fixed after the fact. So always be rolling and always keep going until you hear the word cut. Okay. Sorry. That sort of turned into a special effects conversation. We’re back. 

Another camera related cue that can bring extra awareness to you. Um, your expression and your placement is a high frame rate. Now I am not as cinematographer or an optical expert of any kind, but I would consider anything 60 frames per second or higher to be a technically high frame rate. Um, frame rates by the way, since we’re talking basics today are usually measured in F P S or frames per second. And it means like what it sounds, the number of individual images or frames captured per second. In the edit, the individual images can be stretched or squished to cover any desired amount of time thanks to digital nonlinear editing. Um, so you might imagine that if you wanted to stretch or in other words, slow down one second of capture over, let’s say one minute of video, having more frames, more data, more information is more better. So a higher frame rate, more samples to stretch is more helpful. Okay. I hope you’re still with me here. It is for that reason, having more information, more data to spread out that shooting at a high frame rate is usually an indication that the director intends to slow the footage down. Alternatively, if you plan on speeding up footage or even playing it at normal speed, um, normal for a human’s eyeball is somewhere between 30 and 60 frames per second. That’s totally fine. Some experts actually maintain that It’s not really possible for the human eye to perceive more than 60 frames per second. So, uh, there’s that? Okay. Technically I hope you’re grasping the concept of frame rates and how more samples is more useful. If you plan to play back what you captured over a longer stretch of time than what you captured it in. That was confusing. Okay. Let me explain why this matters for a dancer. If you are shooting at a high frame rate that will be getting slowed down in the final, edit. A facial expression, a line, a transition that you made for a very, very small fraction of a second while cameras were rolling could last a very long time on screen. So it’s crucial that you be aware of facial expressions, body placement, and even performing transition moments versus considering transition moments what gets you between performance moments. That transition could last 30 seconds on camera? If you aren’t performing every single fraction of a second of it, the performance can fall flat in the final edit. I got some hands-on experience with this, myself playing with my husband’s, um, Sony RX 100, which is a little point and shoot kind of pocketable size camera, but it captures 1000 frames per second at full HD, which means 1920 by 1080 pixels. We’ll talk about aspect ratios in a second. You’re down, you’re down. Anyways It can only capture that much data for one second at a time. So in our little exploration, I tried to fit as much dance as possible into one second of movement that wound up, you know, that got stretched into 30 seconds of a movie. We made a 30 second movie out of one second of dance. And holy heck, I learned so much about my face and where I hold tension in my neck and my shoulders and my hands. Um, so if you have access to high frame rate cameras and you want to learn about yourself, I strongly recommend giving that some play. Um, and I recommend going easy on yourself as you review that footage, some hard truths buried in those frames. Okay. Those are a few examples of the movement cues that a dancer can take from camera. But I think that a lot of maybe even most dancers who want to learn camera terminology want to, because they aspire to choreograph and or direct. And yeah, if you plan on choreographing and obviously if you plan on directing, it’s very, very important that you be able to communicate what you want to see and understand what is wanted in the language of film.  I would like to embed a little caveat here. I think that choreographers and directors need to understand each other period, but what I see happening a lot is that because choreographers understand movement so well movement of all things, not just the dancers, but movement of the camera movement of the story. So on and so forth. I think it’s, it’s common that choreographers wind up directing the camera throughout their dance scenes and sometimes even beyond. And for that reason, yeah, it’s, it’s very advantageous for choreographers to understand and speak camera, but I actually don’t think choreographers should wind up directing their scenes unless it’s made clear that that’s what’s happening right from the jump. And unless they receive a director credit like Jerome Robbins in west side story, for example. Yeah. It’s a thing that happens a lot and I don’t feel great about it. I’m fully on board with empowering choreographers to take the ball and run with it on set. But if we are indeed directing the camera, if we are indeed directing the scene, then let us be directors. I would love to live in a world where directors understand dance as much as choreographers understand the camera. I think, kind of a funny thing to think about, actually that seems like a trap and speaking of traps, Ooh, that was a juicy segue. 

Now I want to talk about why and how learning camera and film terminology can be a trap because the first film was made in 1902 at a whopping 12 frames per second, for a little perspective, the camera that I just mentioned, the little point and shoot Sony RX 100 captures a thousand, the iPhone that is probably in your pocket captures 120 at full HD.  So all that to say a lot has happened since since then, since, uh, I think it’s called the Man on the Moon. I think that’s the name of the first film. I know it was 1902. Um, but yeah, a lot has happened since then technologies are evolving so quickly right now that it can feel incredibly intimidating and expensive to try to play catch up and stay caught up in that field. There are simply so many different words and terms probably as many as there are in the entire dance lexicon actually, now that I think about it, but add the complexity that some of them sound like they mean the same thing, but mean different things like depth of field and depth of focus. And some are literally the same word that have different meanings like frame, for example, which means the single individual picture on a film strip or the still section of the many images that make up a video, like in a frame rate, what we already talked about, but frame also refers to the borders and what’s visible within them. Then you’ve got aspect ratio, which is the images width to height ratio, which is usually given in numbers, pixels, but sometimes not. Um, depth of field and depth of focus, which is sometimes called lens to film ratio. So there you have it two totally different terms that explain the same thing that happens a lot. Um, lens to film ratio or lens to film tolerance, or depth of focus explains the distance between the lens itself and the sensor, the sensor’s sensitivity, which is called I-S-O or ISO, which is actually different from exposure, which is the amount of light that reaches the sensor. Some of you are still wondering what is a sensor and where is it sensor? We haven’t even gotten into the names for camera angles, the names for camera movements. Yeah, it’s a lot, I guess what I’m trying to say is the same way you and I have dedicated our time and focus to dance or choreography or whatever it is that you do. Photographers and cinematographers, camera operators have dedicated probably the same amount to what they do this. So although it is tempting to think that you can figure this out with a few YouTube videos or even by the end of the year, if you have some time on set and really ask a lot of good questions. Even then, it’s probably not going to happen. And that’s okay now I don’t mean to be discouraging or to be a Debbie downer. I am here to help you, but I’m also here to tell you that. Man, I made a micro movie every day for over 400 days and I am on set a lot and I still hear words that I’ve never heard of. Shorthand, code words for other words. Um, I’m still figuring this out as well. So go easy on yourself, take it slow and apply what you are learning. Get a camera other than your iPhone, probably, um, get a camera that you’re comfortable with actually using get a camera that you’re comfortable, potentially harming because sometimes use does that, but then go play. That’s how you learn. That’s how you learn. Now you’ve heard the tough stuff. You’ve heard the obvious stuff. Now I’m going to give you a few of my favorite resources when it comes to cinematography and photography and film terminology. Um, step one, marry an optical engineer. And if that doesn’t work out for you the next time that you reach for Instagram or Tik-tok open your camera app, instead, explore every single setting, tap every single number or icon or word on the screen and play with the settings, adjust settings, take pictures, take videos. Notice what changes. And if you don’t know what something means, take for example, what is that tiny F in the top right corner when I’m in portrait mode, that means f-stop Google it, read what it is, read what it means to use it, and then see how it works for the record iPhone’s camera app really works hard to hide a ton of the most fun and exciting settings to play with. So I really do recommend, um, doing this little exploration with a handheld camera, like an actual camera. It doesn’t have to be fancy. Um, in fact, a very wise man once said, the very best camera to use is the one that you have. So use that one or use the one you can afford and then use the one, you know, how to use that means there will be a learning curve. Next I recommend you watch every single episode of Tony Zao’s every frame of painting on YouTube. That is the name of the channel, every frame of painting. Um, there are a series of video essays about cinematography and film, um, less about the terms and the tools and more about their effect. So, so good. Also strongly recommend the Team Deakins podcast, which is Roger Deakins podcast. Roger Deakins, one of my favorite cinematographers ever. So good. Uh, also the podcast Protecting the Frame. That was a handout from my dear friend, DevinJamieson. Thank you for that. Devin. I’ve been loving listening to Protecting the Frame so good. Um, also buy and read 100 Ideas That changed film. That is a book by David Parkinson. Another, another good bang for the buck is 30 Second photography. That’s edited by Brian Dilger I think I’m saying that right. Those are both really comprehensive, yet small and sticky bites that lead to really big learning in an even bigger field of information. It really like the way they have curated and explain some pretty difficult like scientific concepts in a way that I, a dance type can understand it.  Um, yeah. Okay, great. I think, I think that is it until, of course I get DevinJamieson on the podcast to talk even more about the camera. 

Um, all right, let’s wrap it up then. Speaking Camera can be at least a very small part of what separates the pros from the rookies, but as a choreographer or a dancer, you do not have to know the difference between depth of field and depth of focus to have a deeply profound effect on your audience. So don’t let the terminology stop you or get you caught up. Honestly, sometimes I think it’s designed to be intimidating like taxes, maybe just to keep, to keep people out. Um, but stay in it. Keep asking questions, keep playing. And of course, keep it funky. That is it for me today. I will talk to you soon. See that right there that bye was too low, that was at 150 Hertz, trying to get 160 and above. Okay. Enough bye!

Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating and review because your words move me too. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right. That’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

This episode’s guest is the reason I pursued a professional career in dance,but she isn’t only an inspiration and a hero in MY life, she is a creative leader in the entertainment industry at large.  Nina McNeely’s work is singular… it is dark, it is bright, and so is she.  I can’t wait for you to hear her thoughts about social media and the way it has changed BRAVERY in art.  We also explore the side effects of “fitting in” and being too precious with our work and each other.  We discuss the value of repetition and the impermanence of LIVE dance, and we go deep on what she thinks about thinking outside of the box.  You’ll laugh, you’ll learn, and on the other side of this episode, you’ll be ready to experiment and be bold with your work!  ENJOY!

Quicklinks:

Black Midi – John L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0nSp8lUws

Caroline Busta’s article on Counterculture: https://www.documentjournal.com/author/caroline-busta/

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight, but don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: My friend, Dana here. Welcome to words that moved me. I must admit it was a big talking weekend. You can probably hear it in my voice. I’m taking it easy today. I’m going to let our guest speak for herself. I am so beyond excited for this episode, but I am taking it easy on my voice. So let’s get right in to wins right now. This very moment. It is thunder storming in Los Angeles and I love it. This is a perfect win for today’s episode because today’s guest is both bright, like lightning and dark like a storm. She is simply so phenomenal. So celebrating my guest today, as well as this beautiful Los Angeles thunderstorm. What are you celebrating, what’s going well in your world? 

Nice. Congratulations. I am so glad that you’re winning. Now. There are 100 ways I could go about introducing today’s guest. I could get nostalgic. I could fan girl. I could scream with enthusiasm, but I can’t, several months post vocal cord surgery. I am encouraged not to scream. So I will say this. If I were Harry Potter, today’s guest would be my dark arts teacher. She’s someone I admire respect and has taught me so much over the years. I am thrilled for you to learn from her as well, and I cannot wait for you to find out how thoughtful in hysterical she is. So without any further ado, go ahead and enjoy the eighth wonder of the world as far as I’m concerned, the fabulous Nina McNeely. 

Dana: And we’re live, um, the dance duet, the virtual dance duet. That just happened was pretty epic. My heart rate is in fat burning zone. I’m sweating from both armpits and I am so excited to have you here. Nina McNeely. Welcome to the podcast.  

Nina: Thank you for having me.  

Dana: I’m so, so stoked about this. Um, okay. The first part, maybe the easiest part, maybe the hardest part kind of up to you. I’d love for you to start by introducing yourself. Um, simply let us know anything you would like us to know about you. I’m so curious to see how this goes.  

Nina: My given name is Nina McNeely, and I would describe myself as a troll and that’s about it.  

Dana: Uh, troll Nina McNeely, the troll, everyone. Um, I will only add to that, that you are a wildly talented troll. I have mentioned you on the podcast before as being the reason why I pursued dance. We sort of grew up together, shared a couple years at Michelle Latimer dance academy before making our way to Los Angeles. You a couple of years before me. And, um, I just so admired your career then, now, always. And so I’m really excited to get to talk about work with you today, work in life and things. Um, so I want to start actually by talking about, um, a moment that started to happen and then we put it in a parking lot. So I I’m thrilled by the way, to be like still getting to know you in our adult lives. Because in our teenage years we were teenagers. I came over recently. I was telling you about this movie, um, Mitchells versus Machines and the hero of this animated, like kids movie or family movie, I guess I would call it is a content creator. She’s a filmmaker and about to go to school in LA for film. And she’s explaining herself in her weird family and how they’re misunderstood. And she says, so I did what any other outsider would do and made weird art. And you were like, oh, weird. And it had this moment of like, don’t get me started on weird. So I want to start the podcast by getting you started on this concept of weird art. Like what adjectives would you rather use? Number one to describe your work and what would you say is out of the box, shall we say these days?  

Nina: Well, I think it’s interesting that we’ve been reduced to weird. When you look in the art world, we have, you know, in the fine art world, there’s surrealism, impressionist, Renaissance, all these descriptive words. And we’ve just been reduced to weird, which I don’t understand how that happened. I don’t know if it’s because we abandoned those labels before or something, but if I would describe myself as one of those fine art things, I would want to be a surrealist or I would want my choreography and artwork to be viewed that way, because I do find myself making things in this more kind of like fantasy dream state kind of place that I think to your regular Joe, they’re like, wow, that’s weird. And I guess with the outside the box thing, well, I mean, I just get asked that all the time, like, Ooh, this new pop star is looking for something really outside of the box.  

Oh yes. That’s code for weird. Okay. Yeah.  

Code for weird. And I’m always like, well, what’s outside of the box to me is not what they think is weird. You know what I mean? Like to me outside of the box is like something ancient and old or based in tradition, you know, because we’ve gotten so far from that recently, you know, our, I even was, you know, one of my last pieces was kind of based in religion a little bit, also something unpopular right now. So I guess, you know, it’s in the eye of the beholder, what outside of the box actually means. And I definitely, I definitely think people try to be weird, um, which is very kind of obvious at first glance or something. But maybe to me, the people that I’ve found there are just subversive and interesting. And like, I can’t wrap my head around at first, like takes me a minute are maybe people that are just extremely like intuitive and trust their instincts. Like when I think of people like that, I think of like Kitty McNamee like when we danced on Hysterica back in the day we used to ask her like, you know, what’s my, uh, what’s my motivation on this part? Or what, what does this part mean? Or, you know, what am I supposed to be thinking of? And she’d be like, I don’t know. And we’d be like, what? She’d be like, what does it mean to you? What do you feel? You know what I mean? And I always admired that kind of openness where she isn’t trying to force or hyper control this idea, but she let something like take on a new life or become created in that rehearsal instead of being a control freak. You know what I mean? And I think I’m really trying to do that more and more with my work. Like I’d like to know less what my work is about and just trust it.  

I love this notion. I think I would have a very hard time achieving that type of distance from my self in my thoughts about my work. I think that’s usually where my work begins thinking about thinking, um, partially, possibly, because that’s sort of a new space that I’m living in metacognition and just being, thinking about my thoughts, it’s a place that I like to be, but I can see the value in art and certainly in the creative process of openness and not knowing, I mean, in creative fields in general, they spring from not knowing or from not having already done. So there must be tremendous power there. That’s exciting to me. Um,  

Thank you. 

It’s hard though. It’s hard though, because I’m an extremely analytical person and I like, you know, I like being prepared and knowing what I’m doing, but sometimes in our industry, we are not given that, that luxury.  Exactly. Like it was going to say on, uh, the Black Midi music video, John L, that I did, I tried to just like, listen to the music, go on a walk and see what was like the first thing that popped into my head. And first off I was like, well, this sounds like Primus and it’s fucking awesome. And uh, I love Primus. And then that somehow triggered this memory of the mascot of Domino’s Pizza in the nineties, which was this little guy called The Noid. 

I remember this! 

Yeah. He was in this red unitards with these bunny ears and he moved really fast and he was like a stop motion. Playmation kind of guy. And I don’t know why that song made me think of him. And I was like, fighting it at first. I was like, you are such a fucking weirdo. Why are you thinking of the Domino’s Pizza mascot right now? And then I was like, you know what, no, fuck it. Let her in, let it in. Hence the dancers being in red unitard. Yeah. 

Yes. And then, and then turn it up. Like let it in and dial it up to 12. Turn it way up. Big, big fan, big, big fan of that work. It stopped me dead in my tracks. I’m not going to give away the ending. I want everybody to go watch it. Um, the Black Midi video, I will link to it in the show notes, click on over to the show notes for easy access. Um, I watched it two times back to back, laughed hysterically was concerned genuinely, um, may have, may have started sweating cause it really, it escalates and it’s wild and in, and playful and smart in so many ways. But one of the things I wanted to ask you because outside of my senior solo in 2004, you and I have not worked together professionally. So I am curious about your process when I watched that Black Midi video, which you, by the way, directed, designed and choreographed, correct. Edit, uh, edited. Did I say that as well?  

Yeah, I did all the animations and compositions and stuff in a crazy time crunch where also when that happens, that’s another time that’s really good to trust your instincts because you don’t have any other choice.  And you’re like, I don’t know what this is, but I’m going with  

Nice. I don’t know an answer to that question in order to move forward. No,  

I also knew with that one, because there were so many elements that I was like, you know, if I just make the dance really strong, everything else will kind of fall into place. And so I kind of made the dance, like the choreography kind of the first thought and then let you know, put all like put, made sure we had a lot of rehearsal, which in our world means four rehearsals back to back, no time to let it sink in for the dancers, just go. And that song is like five and a half minutes or something insane.  

It’s an opera. I think it’s has different phases and life’s of its own.  

And I was like, this song is pure fucking chaos to the dancers. I was like every five minutes. I was like, do you need water? And they were like, no, we’re good. And I was like, God Bless a dance company, Entity Dance Company. You know, now they’re not just music, video dancing. They’re used to being in rehearsal and like training all day, eight hours a day, they have a synergy with each other, you know, they can like, they, like as soon as they know the choreography that kind of get in sync through their peripheral vision. Ooh. You know, because  

Yeah, that’s the thing that we, and we don’t have that as much in the gig to gig economy that is, you know, freelancing in LA. Um, I am, I didn’t know, by the way it was the Entity Cast. I recognized a few key players, um, Karen who I absolutely adore and, and a handful of others, but that was the company that was entity.  

Raymond is not a part of the company, but he’s one of my favorite dancers in the world. And I just kept telling him, I’m like, you just need to give me that crazy Liza Minelli energy. Like every time just wide-eyed and insane. Yeah.  

Okay. Brilliant reference Liza plus Domino’s guy equals Black Midi Nina McNeely. Okay. So here’s my question though. I’m going to call on two, uh, of my favorite creative types. This might surprise you by the way, Jack Lemmon, honestly, I fancy Shirley McClain, but Jack has this famous saying, he obviously is a comedian to choose the five funniest things that you could possibly do commit to the funniest one and then play it deadly serious. And then David Fincher has a saying something. He, he mentioned about fight club once. He said, fight club is, uh, a film that is about a very deeply serious subject made by deeply unserious people. And I think part of the reason why I was initially attracted to you and your work and am still is because of that intersection of serious silliness. I remember like watching you dance in that big room at Michelle Latimer Dance Academy was like watching someone be possessed. It could be terrifying. It could be beautiful. It was very serious in your execution and in the way that it made me feel, but you were one of the deeply funniest people I have ever met. And I think in your recent work, both are being explored this, this humor. Um, I would love for you to talk a little bit about how humor factors into your process, if it does and where it shows up in the work.  

Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I should have mentioned earlier when I was listing all of the art forms. Um, but absurdist is one that I’m all that’s, what’s missing in the world right now. Nothing’s absurd. Everything’s so serious. They’re like very hard to be funny. Yeah. Instead of just ridiculous, you know what I mean? And I was like, yeah, I, I remember there being a lot more absurdist style work like in the nineties, like in the, even in the music video kind of realm, but I’ve always kind of felt like, I mean, I like extremely tragic and serious and dark things, topics and people, but I think when it takes itself too seriously, it almost like loses the darkness or the seriousness, like, I mean, any good horror film has all of this light, joyful dream-like stuff to create this amazing contrast for when the darkness comes and it makes it more unpredictable and surprising, you know?  

Yes. It unpredictable and surprising that pretty much sums it up, especially for that video. Um, and I think we could be here for a very long time if we were to assess all of your works, even my favorite ones, um, all of your projection mapping feels that way to me. It is extremely dramatic and precise and odd. Um, but I mean, obviously the nature of projection, it feels bright. It feels thoughtful. I wouldn’t say it feels funny. Like nothing about it makes me laugh, but I definitely don’t get the feeling. That’s like this isn’t for you. This is for art people. This is this isn’t for you. This is just for dark people. It feels like I don’t care who watches this because it’s what I think is important.  

And Surprisingly. Yeah. Surprisingly, my work does get laughs sometimes even when it’s a really serious piece, because I think it’s the sort of laugh of like, ha ha ha. How clever of her to do that? Like, there’s sometimes the strange giggle that comes out of the audience. That’s not like, oh, you tickled me. But something about the cleverness like caught me off guard and I have to be like, ah ha! 

We laughed for all sorts of reasons that are not jokes. We laugh when we’re uncomfortable. We laugh when we’re jealous. We laugh when we’re oh yes. I think all sorts of reasons for that.  

I also, I also love madness in general and I love laugh. Laughter can really have that feel it. You know what I mean? Well, that’s why I love Deena Thompson. She can always go to like a pure, that’s why she’s been my muse for so many years. She can just go completely mad in a matter of seconds. You know what I mean? Like when she laughs it’s terrifying, you know, like in a piece or something, because you’re like, fuck what this woman is on, on a good one. Like she’s losing it. I just love, I do love possession and madness. And like, I think I’ve been kind of digging into like what truly inspires me. And I’m, I really think it’s people and psychology even more than dance. Like I, that’s why I’m obsessed with true crime. Every, you know, I’ve watched every cult documentary ever made. I just put like cult new cult documentary, 2021 and YouTube, like everything to make sure I’m keeping up to date.  

That is such a move. Such a strong move.  

I just love that the power that people have over others and the confidence they have in their own bizarro ideas, you know, and I love to how something, I mean, we see this all the time, how something can start great with good intentions with pure intentions and then it can be so easily corrupted with greed, power, all of those things. And I just, I think people are absolutely fascinating.  

Uh, I want to go in seven or eight different directions from there. If we were having a barbecue, we could do that, but I’m going to try to stay streamlined here on the subject of madness specifically. I did not see the film of Climax, but I did see the trailer. I listened to an interview, a podcast that you did. And you talked a lot about the production of the film dance induced, and drug-induced probably both in equal parts mania. And I could only imagine what the behind the scenes of that project looks like, looked like was there a behind the scenes, was there an on and off camera or was that a 24/7 rave? And there happened to be a camera in the room for it.  

I mean the ladder, I, it was pretty like, I mean, just the energy of those style of dancers, like the way that they enjoy themselves as to like put on music and battle, like, you know, like all day, we’d have to be like, you guys need to save your energy. Like the camera’s not even on and you’re going insane.  

Okay. That’s good to know. And that’s what I would, I sensed might be the answer to that. I do want to point out that my first film, my first feature film, I was, uh, I was technically a dancer, but what I was doing was more background material. Toni Basil was the choreographer. The film was Charlie Wilson’s War, Tom Hanks. There’s a hot tub scene. 

Tracy Phillips is in that. 

She is incredible

Shooting her sexy sword dance.

It’s riveting. I it’s, it’s the most memorable part of that movie, other than every single thing, Phillip Seymour Hoffman doesn’t says yes. And the girl in the red dress in the hot tub scene raises hand, kidding will not even recognize me. I’m off on the side somewhere. But in that scene, we were party goers, you know, fancy people hanging out with other fancy people. And we were asked at some point by the director, Mike Nichols, no big deal to go do some cocaine quote over in the corner. And I remember being like Basil, Toni, Toni, I don’t, I don’t know how to do that. I’ve never done. She goes, you’ve never done cocaine. I was like, and was like kind of embarrassed. And then she showed me like how a lady would with her little pinky fingernail. And she just taught me how to do cocaine for a second surreal moment. Um, but there’s a, by the way, I’m not condoning drug use. I am encouraging a broad view of human life and the things that might be a dancer’s job that you never expect it to be your job, by the way. I don’t think you have to do drugs in order to book movies or know how to do drugs in movies is actually very different. But what I’m trying to get to, and when I talked to Reshma about, is dancers being human first, before they are dancers. I think that’s why I love dance actually is because humans do it, not robots, not, um, silks or flags or, I mean, I do think it’s cool sometimes the way trees move, but I like dance because humans do it. Um, the cocaine story was a sidebar. I don’t know how that came up, but actually, well, in climax, you probably did have to be teaching or choreographing behavioral, like conditions. Like the condition of  

I had to make, I had to edit together. Um, cause none of the dancers had done psychedelics before, which my jaw was on the floor. When I found that out, I was like, seriously, all you Europeans, have never dropped any acid or eaten a mushroom damn. Um, so Gaspar is like, we really need to help them because you know, as Gasper and I know not everyone acts the same on that drug. Like he would say like, you know, someone needs to be in heaven. Like the whole night never stops dancing. Is just on cloud nine in their own world. Cause there’s always someone like that at the rave, you know? And then cause at first when we’d be like, okay, you guys are starting to feel the drugs. They started all acting drunk. And we were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, not that, no, not that. So I edited together this horrid, terrifying, uh, video of people on PCP, Flakka, acid threw in some Butoh facial expressions for fun. And this is one where the sky just has all this drool doing that, like primal scream face. And I was like, this is also powerful. Um, but yeah,  Yeah, Yes, this is an option, you know? And like some people really lose themselves on drugs and some seem like they’re barely affected even though perhaps in their mind, they’re going through something crazy. They’re more like still and kind of chill, letting the experience wash over them. So I did have to help them with a lot of that to give like a variety to all of it and not for everyone to just look drunk.  

I think it’s important to point out to people listening who are aspiring choreographers, that there is so much more to this job description than making up cool moves  

Or an eight count. Honestly. Like I always tell upcoming choreographers, like you’re going to be amazed that the amount of times you don’t have to make up a phrase, zero. Not that no, you have to like it’s movement direction or like storytelling or, or composition a still composition with a bunch of bodies. There’s so many, you’re painting a picture a lot of times for film. And it’s not really about the moves. So many things when it comes to like cam the camera and dance that you usually won’t do a phrase because or you do and then they don’t catch any of it  

Or they cut away from it.  

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.  

It’s it is possible that you can love dance intensely and know that it is not the most interesting thing to watch.  

Yeah. That’s why I think I will. I’m always attracted to dancers that are also actors where they can really be human in a moment. Like I think we were talking about this the other day. Like I prefer to just see two people stare at each other and that electricity that happens when two people look at into each other’s eyes over someone doing some long phrase of choreography. Yeah. Yes. I also was going to say like, I’ve always been a huge fan of Pina Bausch because she does praise work, but I love how she’ll just drill it into the ground. And it keeps repeating and repeating there’s something too about like young choreographers always want to make like every count and every move is something new and different, which I used to do also when I was young, you know? And then I started to learn about like the power of repetition and it’s like, once the audience is familiar with something and they know that it’s coming, then they can start thinking about, but what does this movement mean? Or like, what are they going through while they’re doing this movement? You know what I mean?  

So you get to watch emotional trajectory instead of physical trajectory, physical movement in space. The, the idea of repetition has helped me tremendously in my freestyle as well, specifically in a circle or free-styling. I had this made up completely self-imposed notion that everything I did had to be cool and new and look good from all 360 degree angles. And it wasn’t until I started, like, let’s just do a jazz square this whole round. I’m just going to do a jazz square, except for you won’t recognize it as a jazz square. So is power obviously, but also great freedom in repetition. And it directs our eye to something other than the moves, which if you’re a choreographer working in the entertainment industry, it will almost always be moves to serve another purpose. Even if that purpose is make the pop star look desirable, make the pop star look dangerous. Um, explain that these two characters are now in love. I don’t recall ever seeing a breakdown or a treatment that’s like this video is about cool moves.  

No, no, there’s always like a purpose and it’s usually not that. And I also feel like I can always spot a truly good dancer by seeing them on a dance floor at like rave or party and that they don’t feel like they need to do all this impressive phrase, work, freestyle insanity, but they just groove and like let the music wash over them. You know, it is funny when you see all these trained dancers on the dance floor, you’re like, this is embarrassing.  

Yeah. Ironically, that is the thing that is not taught. And I know art people would argue that it can’t be taught. I happen to disagree. I don’t think I was a very funky person for much of my life. I moved to LA fell in love with  fell in love. I, well, I just, I fell in love with street styles and got very lucky in my timing and in my placement and happened to have like in-person influence from some really key people who like were there at the beginning, Toni Basil Popin’ Pete Sugar Pop. I really don’t think I learned how to feel music in a non, like driving in the car headbop type away, like in my whole body, through my fingernails. And in my feet, I didn’t learn that until probably Lockadelic’s class at the old millennium. She taught locking every, I think two times a week maybe. Um, and we did not stop dancing for the hour and a half. There’s no like, okay then the right foot steps on one, let’s go from the top. That’s left on eight, right on like there’s no talking about it. You’re actively dancing for an hour and a half. And that’s how I learned to be funky. So I do think it can be taught, but it is interesting that people who have trained so intensely have such a little awareness of how to do that.  

Yeah. And I, I also think that, you know, at Michelle’s like when I was younger, like I was pretty efficient in both hip hop and contemporary, but always was like obsessed with technique and contemporary ballet. And like, I just was, that was my jam. And so definitely 

I can still see your passe. I can see your freaking posse hips are so square and that’s the highest possible you ever did see,  

But I think it’s interesting. Cause at first, like when I started teaching and choreographing in LA, I did, it was very contemporary and like technical. And then one day I was like, I am denying my Michael Jackson Obsession. Like I’ve kept her in a closet, no pun intended,  

That was funny. 

Uh, for far too long. And as soon as I started, like letting that out more, which I don’t think people maybe recognize how many Michael centric kind of movements there are that I do. I love neck-ograohy and, uh, you know, hands and kind of intricate things that are very much him. Um, that that’s when I started feeling like I was starting to get a little bit of an aesthetic and everything I made, wasn’t like a brand new idea, brand new idea. Like it started to have a little bit of a shape, you know? And so I really just let it in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

I don’t have a gentle segway, but I do have a lot that I want to talk to you about. And actually, perhaps this does relate to the signature and what we were talking about earlier, um, being weird or out of the box, and I really want to talk to you because I know this is something that I’ve dealt with in different ways, in different phases of my life. But listeners I’m assuming must have is this notion of popularity and YouTube and Instagram have given this quantifiable number to your reach, your influence and to some people, your value. I would love to hear your thoughts on what is your relationship with popularity and social media in general? I’m just so curious.  

Yeah. When I thought of that question, what is my relationship with popularity? My answer is that I try not to have one. You know, I try all that matters to me is like the pursuit of truth and self-expression, and if that is becomes popular. Cool. And if not, that’s cool too. And if it doesn’t happen until much later, you know, sometimes takes a little time for the world to catch up or whatever. That’s. That’s cool too. I think like you were saying, it’s quantifiable, that’s questionable to me because I think as a working choreographer, sure. Some people might be looking at your Instagram and your followers and stuff, but I think for a true, like for there to be longevity in a career and integrity, it’s a more about your it’s about, are you dependable? Are you easy to work with, do you know how to nurture someone else’s vision? Like those are the things that bring you, keep bringing you back and also  

And those things don’t get a follower account.  

Hell no, no one knows about those. You know? And it’s more about like your relationship with directors and them talking to other directors that are looking for a choreographer and actually most of the time has nothing to do with Social Media or your YouTube. You know, it’s more word of mouth because I think in the entertainment industry, people want to guarantee that they’re going to have someone dependable more than who’s hot right now. You know, because who’s hot right now might not be experienced enough to handle the job. You know what I mean?  

Thank you for sharing that. I think that may come as reassuring or slightly intimidating depending on where the person listening falls on the timeline of their career. I can imagine somebody aspiring to be a choreographer like, well, how do I become dependable if I have not worked yet? How do, how does the word of mouth support me? You know, this chicken/egg conversation.  

I will say though, that what I’ve noticed is it’s about like for a choreographer and I think times are changing. So it’s a little different, but you know, when I was younger, it’s like, there wasn’t any social media you’d have to be like in this group show and even carnival or whatever, but it’s about being prolific and like constantly making and constantly creating and not just being like, here’s me doing my process in my house and my sweats, no, put in the effort, put it on stage, get people there and, and be okay with maybe like being experimental and sometimes making some questionable, you know, the quality is questionable. Like that’s okay. I think before social media, we were so risky and brave because you, no one was going to see it. No one was filming it and you didn’t have like a fucking brand to protect, you know what I mean?  It was like, you could just be really risky and experimental and just go for it. And sometimes like be maybe too experimental and it didn’t work and that’s okay. But I think that’s how you learn, learn yourself. And I feel like with all this editing and filtering and preciousness, like you might be just pigeon holing yourself. Yeah. You’re just putting yourself in even branding. Like you’re putting yourself in a box. Like what if that changes? Like what if one day you wake up and you want to do something totally different? Like then you’re going to feel ashamed that you want to change  

Or no one that you think that you have to rebrand first before you can do that thing.  

Yeah. I think there’s like a lack of flexibility and malleability. Like I’m totally okay with like my opinion changing, my art form changing, like all of that. Like I also get bored easily, you know what I mean? And I just want, I want to keep learning and trying and getting into new things. Like, and I think when you’re really confident, you know, that you will keep making great work. You know what I mean? I think if you really push yourself, you don’t need to be like someone stole my idea. You should be flattered by that. And you should also know that you’re going to have more great ideas. There’s too much preciousness these days. Definitely  

On that thought. No. On one of the thoughts that came right before that, this notion of, of you being able to change your mind. I wonder how tightly, if at all, that relates to your, um, ability and willingness to change your medium as well. You talked about getting bored easily. You are absolutely a person that wears many hats. We’ve talked about your choreography, but, and a little bit of your animation and design skills, but you are also a full-blown editor, creative director, all of these things without having to stop being anyone being any part of the other. But it seems like you allowed your, you gave yourself permission to be a multi person without losing or making it mean something about the other parts of you that you also love and are good at. Is that a fair assessment?  

Yeah. And I think, you know, anyone that wears many hats or is interested in many things might be worried about that, you know, that famous saying jack of all trades master of none, you know, and I, I always worried about that too. Like shit, I should probably just stick to one thing and really master it, you know, instead of always being like spread out like an octopus with my tentacles in so many jars, you know, that’s how I sometimes feel. But you know, like take animating for instance, like I have stopped myself from going into the world of 3D because I feel like it will suck all of my time and my soul and I’ll be obsessed technically with this 3D thing. And because I cut myself off from that, I’ve just keep diving further into like 2D and collage kind of like, you know, the Black Midi videos, like total collage, you know, it’s green screen with backgrounds and stuff that I’ve actually over the years have started to find like an aesthetic in that. Because I think people don’t realize that like how much restraint and restriction like actually opens new doors, you know, and pushes you, it pushes you to just think in a different way. And sometimes it’s good to just put rules on something and see what happens. Cause it forces you to think in a new way. But, um, I would encourage anyone in the realm of dance or choreography to try editing because a basic editor edits so boring for on the floor, you know, on the snare where we’ve been training our whole lives to like push the music, like go againist it. Yeah. Use, use the silence. Like, you know, go where the song might be really fast, but there’s this one underlying slow tone, like dance to that instead. So I think that most, most types in the dance realm would be surprised at how good at editing they are. You know what I mean? And that, and I’ll say to anyone to that, like if you have other things that you’re interested in and you found that you are skilled in them or that you’re really interested enough to like learn the skill, like do it because like, it was such a crazy lesson for a lot of people this past two years during the pandemic, like I had really geared my focus into like touring and live and creative directing for live stage and all this stuff. And then it was just all cut off, over. I was like, dammit, but I was so glad that I have also editing in my pocket and animating, cause I was able to do a bunch of jobs like that during this where I didn’t have to go anywhere. And I was in my own house just being a nerd, you know, for 14 hours a day. Um, but like it’s really helpful. I think it is scary though for most people. Cause they, they think they’re going to be too spread out and not good at all of these many hats, but just kind of mediocre at a bunch of things. So I don’t know. I think it’s powerful. I think if you are really interested in other things, like try it, you know, dance is the most like time consuming art form and it is kind of fleeting in a way, you know what I mean? Like it’s not like a painting. You can take a photograph of a dancer, but it’s not the same. You know what I mean? It’s something to be watched live. And in real time, you know, even like a film of a dance, doesn’t really capture what it feels like to see that live. You know what I mean?  

No, it is fleeting. It is singular. The moment of it happens and then it’s gone.  

And thats the beauty of it too. 

It’s so special. I think I love it. I get really excited by it. I’m really grateful to count myself a person who has experienced that and helps other people to experience that or invites. I think other people do experience that. Um, and I also am a person, as I mentioned before, dance is not the king of my universe. It might be the queen, but people, I think dance is interesting because people don’t get me wrong. I will watch a Boston dynamics, robot dog dance for an hour straight, but I love humanness. And I mean, what is humanness, if not fleeting, changing, we’re mortal, it’s going to stop. So why not? Why not try a thing that interests you? I just, it makes, I understand the fear of not being good. I really do. But the only way you can assure that you will never become good at it is by not trying it

Its good to fail, if you want to be good at anything, you should be failing sometimes. You know, and I think the preciousness that we were talking about is like, you know, the first few things that some of my favorite things I’ve ever directed, just got canned and never saw the light of day. Some, some in some cases the music was never even released just a tragedy, but they know, uh, I had to learn, I think rejection is such a powerful thing for people to experience. And I think right now we’re really sheltering ourselves and the children from it. But I think it’s important. 

By championing inclusivity and things. Yeah.  

Yeah. And I think that is, I think that is a little dangerous. Like it’s cool to not be a part of a community or a group. It’s okay. It’s okay to be a loner. Like if we know anything about history, it’s that those loners created the best poetry, the best artwork, philosophies, all of these things. And that I think if everybody’s included, what is the art of the future going to look like? I’m a little scared, you know, I don’t  

Think about let’s talk about it.  

Yeah. I don’t think people should be just bullying kids left and right or anything. You know, I think we have to be gentle with each other. Absolutely. But I think it’s okay to not fit in and to not be popular that might actually really build some character and a unique voice. Like I, I try to not be like seduced by trends. You know, it’s very hard these days because they’re all over the place and they’re in your face 

And they’re designed to be so seductive.

Right. And, and the, like this desire to be relevant again in the eye of the beholder, what does relevance even mean? You know what I mean? Does it mean that you’re getting 500 emojis a day from people? What does that, we know what happened to like conversation, phone calls? Like I’m sad that things, social media sometimes reduces our connection instead of increasing it. Like, we really think that like, oh, it’s so cool. How we’re all connected. I’m like, yeah, but you just watched something that I put so much of my heart into and you replied with a smiley with star eyes. I’m getting nothing from that. You know what I mean?  

This is my philosophy. I believe that connection is a feeling and you can feel connected to someone through a two dimensional screen. Um, and if I can feel connected to you here, I can feel connected to you anywhere. I don’t think we have to be talking in person to feel connected. That said I would much prefer to be hanging out at your house right now. And I would much prefer to see your work in person, opposed to watching it on YouTube. Um, and, and the preciousness of knowing that it’s about to be gone versus this ‘Oh, I’ll just hit replay and I’ll watch it again.’ I there’s pleasure. I get pleasure from both because I can binge watch a thing. I have probably watched the Lord of the Rings trilogy 25 times the extended editions. And so I’m like, I love the availability to really go in on something. Um, but I digress. So that’s another direction I want to go with this.  

I think I was going to say it’s more even like the difference between a text message and a phone conversation and a face to face conversation. You know what I mean, where they’re cool that we’re connected, but the electricity that happens between face-to-face like in a face-to-face conversation there, nothing compares to that. I don’t think, I mean, and unfortunately we’re in a situation where we can’t do as much of that, but I even mean like a phone call, you know, hearing someone’s voice and feeling their energy and feeling their tone and all of that stuff.  

And, and, and understanding, pause and silence. Um, I, this is something that I got to know very intimately during my vocal cord recovery, and we all have different ideas about what silence means culturally, personally. Um, and I think that really is hard to detect through texts. Um, so interesting. I, I wanna dig into really quick counterculture. I want to share a reference. A reference is there’s an article that my husband shared with me in document journal by a woman called Caroline Busta. I think I am saying that, right. I hope I’m saying that, right. It is called the internet did not kill counterculture. You just won’t find it on Instagram. 

Exactly!

And she writes, and I love this. I wanted to share this quote to be truly counter-cultural in a time of tech hegemony. One has to above all betray the platform, which may come in the form of betraying or divesting from your personal public online self. And I think it’s so true. This article has a lot of like peak insights and talk about old punk old, you know, underground type of art. Um, I’ll send you this article, Nina. I’ll put it in the show notes, but you know, when you, what year did you get to LA?  

2001.  

Okay. And you talked about creating work for clubs, where, what were these shows? Who, who was going to them? Like what was underground then? And what is it now?  

Wow, interesting you bring that up because I did see, I’ve been kind of running into old homeys from that time. And I saw one the other day that I was like, oh my God. Remember when we did that cheerleading number and you guys threw me like two stories in the air and I almost shat my pants and yeah. And it was like, and it started with like a pollical ribbon dance. And he was like, yeah, but were you in the version with like the spaghetti and the kiddie pools where like rough the spaghetti all over ourselves? And I was like, no, but what the fuck happened? Like we fucking go in, so bizarre. So ridiculous. Like, it was all about props, like, okay, we’re going to fucking dip our face in Elmer’s glue. And then in this bowl of sequence, boom, look change, you know, or like, whatever, like we just used to do nutso stuff or like I bought the super high powered fan from home Depot, shout out to home Depot. They don’t know how much they have supported dancers club performances and careers.  

I do not test me. I will come back with a sponsorship or endorsement deal.  Um, everybody’s addidas except for us just solid orange home Depot.  

Yeah. Well, for club wise, God, and I just saw some homies last night that we were like, you guys, we know I’ve known each other for like 14 years, like from when we were babies in these club environments at these raves and stuff, but like one of the most prevalent was Mustache Mondays, um, uh, Nacho Nava who rest in power, um, really started a whole counter-culture world in downtown LA when downtown LA was like gross and scary and no one wanted to be there. Um, and Marlon Pelayo, and I did a lot of duets over the years, some good, some horrible, but we always showed up, you know, and it was on a Monday night, Monday night. Yes. And it was weekly, not even monthly. We were all there at one point, maybe in like 2006 or something, there was something every night, there was also a party called Shits and Giggles. Um, that was in this huge space with like a balcony, like weird, like a gorgeous theater that we just did the most rowdy rug rat crap you’ve ever seen. And then, uh, Ryan, Heffington also had a show called fingered, which is incredible. That was a monthly, there was different themes, like back to school, fingered back to school, like a monster themed one or whatever. And Ryan, I mean, it’s so incredible. And also doesn’t take himself too seriously. There’s so many funny numbers he’d make all of our costumes we’d rehearsed in his house. Like it was incredible. Um, but yeah, we just used to do a lot, like every time someone’s like, oh, we need performers for this. And it was, we’d get like a hundred bucks, you know what I mean? And we’d use that mostly for materials and to like get some cheap wine after. But, uh, but yeah. And also, yeah, we didn’t need money to do shit back then either. Like, he’d be like, perfect. You’re going to come out of this cardboard box and like, yeah, me and Marlon did to duet once where I came out of a cardboard box, there’s a bag of Cheerios. That’s prop. I, my costume was like a little kid’s Rambo costume with like the bullets or two of those just duct tape pastries. I believe not very healthy, but, um, we just, we just went crazy and we, like I said, like sometimes there’s no one there, you know? And we were like, well, I guess we’re still going to just wear our heart on our sleeve and go, go the fuck in, even though there’s 10 people here, you know, but we learned so much from that. And also it was kind of cool to be like, oh, well, if you weren’t there, you missed it. You know, that was kind of like how you could be in. You have to know, you know, and you had to like, and you know, you couldn’t see it anywhere. And if you missed it, you missed it. Also there’s something to be said about when I first came to LA and started doing more like group shows that, you know, we’re not like in, that were in theaters and not in clubs. We’d get written up, uh, by the Dance Critic in the LA times, every time you did the live performance, like what incredible, where they, he was, what’s his name? Lewis Segal. He was so mean, but brilliant. He’d be like, this is a scatter shot of ideas. It makes no sense. I mean, you’d be like, oh, like you were actually getting critique. Cause I think that’s something also missing. Like, everyone’s like, oh my God, I love your stuff. It’s great. And I’m all I need some haters. Where are the people that are like, I hate how you always do this boring witchy, troll crap. Like I wish you would, you know, I’m so sick of seeing this. I feel like you can get a little bit of that on YouTube.  

A little bit of that.  

I don’t know who said this, but like, if you don’t have any haters, somebody lying  

Or you, or you’re not doing something, right.  

Yeah. Or you’re not pushing yourself. Right. You’re staying in something safe or whatever. So I don’t know. 

All right, everybody go out there and get yourself some haters. That’s it for me, Nina and me, my mom is going to be so pissed. I do that wrong all the time. Nina and I, no, Nina and me, shit. I don’t know. Um, okay. This is, this has been lovely. I love this insight. I think you’re brilliant. I am just shouting your praises forever, but yo, if you want me to tell you that your shit is awful, I will tell you that. I don’t believe that it’s true, but I’ll say, uh, that’s very, that’s a very, um, LA thing to do. Like, wait, what do you want me to be to you? What do you want me to say? But, um, it’s not an LA thing. No, it’s a people pleaser thing. It’s uh, I grew up being a dancer thing. Really, really aiming to please. Yes. Um, okay. Here’s how I would like to finish. Speaking of, I grew up a dancer, we both grew up in Colorado and I want to play a quick little round of how do you know you’re from Colorado burnout, round of super questions. Are you ready for that? Yes. They’re going to come so fast. Okay. How often do you wash your car?  

Just got a new one. Just got a new car, covered in dust.  

Yeah. Yes. The answer is like almost never.  

Yeah, almost never. And I think I need a shamwow. Well, I need to order one of those, I can just use the hose at my house and spray her down.  

Um, everybody listening is probably thinking, well, not everybody listening. People who listen often are probably thinking of me fondly. I have a carwash across the street from my house. And as a person who has a podcast, that can be a tremendous challenge. I have, I hate them. Number one. And even when I liked them, when they were a hand carwash before they got the screeching eels of vacuum death, before that, I still never got my car wash and it was literally in my front yard. So 

I do love the experience of going through the old school carwash with the flipping flap. It really feels like you’re going into a different dimension.  

And when you do that, don’t you feel like you’re seven.  

Yeah I love watching videos of kids going through them. Screaming How they terrified  

You’re in the mouth of a beast and it’s got multiple good esophagus is a soft guy and tone 

Its the birthing experience all over again 

Too soon, too soon. Give me out. Okay. Were so much for rapid fire. Um, how do you get the ice off your windshield when you’re going to school senior year, let’s call it that  

The scrape, a small enough hole that you can see through it with one eye  

With what? With, what do you scrape?  

Uh, it’s usually like a glove contraption, a little scrapey do at the end of it.  

I usually, I don’t know how I would always be misplacing the scrape dues. I have used CDs. I have used my school ID. I have like taken off, taken off a shoe and stood sock foot. Okay. Good. Good. Don’t check, check, check. Um, what are Rocky mountain oysters?  

Uh, those are, uh, bull balls. Yes.  

Testicles.

Testes. I’ve actually never really tried those and I’m pretty adventurous with food.

The next time we go back home and do that. Okay. Final question. 

Yeah set a date for balls.  

Hot balls date done. Uh, what is the name of the theme park in Denver? 

Elitch Gardens. 

Yes. Only a tourist would call it six flags. Congratulations. You passed your from Colorado. 

It was an actual garden. You remember the old one with the white, with the white rollercoaster. That was, yeah, that would rattle your brain because it was so old.  

Terrible, terrible. They probably called it the brain scrambler. It was called the twister.  

Yeah, the twister. Yes.  

Wow. Good job. Okay. Um, all right. Final thoughts. This is how I would like to wrap it up as your PR uh, unofficial PR person. I strongly encourage everybody listening to go check out Nina’s website. I genuinely think that being there is more fun than going to a movie. It is more thrilling than going to a haunted house. It is the best of both of those worlds. Please go visit her work and get lost. Um, and we’ll see you later. Just go get lost for a while. Enjoy yourself. Um, I think the world of you, thank you so much for being here. 

I love you so much, so much  

Bye! 

There you have it. My friend, I hope you learned a lot from Nina. I always have, and I get the feeling I always will. I loved what she had to say about social media and the way it has changed our bravery in art. I loved what she had to say about preciousness and the impermanence of live dance. Oh man. The takeaways from this one, the list is long. I hope that after listening to this episode, you’re ready to think outside the box experiment, be bold. And of course keep it funky. I will talk to you soon. Bye

Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating and review because your words move me too. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right. That’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

In this Q&A episode I get to tackle questions from listeners that span the spectrum from technical to philosophical.  I share the best advice I’ve ever gotten (from David Frickin Fincher), and I talk about some outstanding gigs!  I tell you about the race and dance history programs/ resources that have been game changers to me, I outline my mental health regimine, AND talk about “that talk” that you get to have with your potential agent.  This episode is rich thanks to YOU and your questions!  Keep em coming, and keep it funky!

Quick Links:
Join the WTMMCOMM: thedanawilson.com/wtmmcomm

In The Heights Choreo Team Episode: https://www.thedanawilson.com/podcast/ep-78-ith

Karida Griffith’s R3D Race and Dance History: https://karidagriffith.com/history/

Moncell Durden’s Intangible Roots: https://www.moncelldurden.com/onlinecourse

Passion Fruit Seeds by Passion Fruit Dance Company: https://newyorklivearts.org/artist/passion-fruit-dance-company/

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Well, Hey there. Good day. Hello. Hi. Welcome to Words that Move me. I’m Dana. I am stoked you are here and I’m stoked to be hitting you with a Q and A episode today. It’s been a while since I did this, um, and times are changing and the things that you want to know are changing too. I got some really great Qs submitted when I put my, ask me anything out there on Instagram, and I am a very excited to A them. But first let’s celebrate. I start every episode with wins because I think it’s important to celebrate what is going well. And today I have a lot to celebrate, but I can not get over this one. When this past Sunday, I went on a morning beach walk with my husband, AKA vice chief, our favorite beache is Dockweiler, um, because the planes from LAX fly directly overhead, and you can light stuff on fire there, which very, very much appeals to Vice Chief. Now, I don’t recall actually how long we walked for. Uh, but there was one moment, one moment in particular, that was very special that I would like to celebrate because this moment a plane, uh, uh, like jumbo freight plane, like not a passenger plane. One of those fancy FedEx types flew overhead. It was a very overcast morning and the sound seemed to be bouncing off of all of the surrounding clouds. The sound from overhead was coming from more places than where my eyes saw the plane. And it was just so unusual to feel this multi-directional really deep and loud rumbling coming from above me. And then watching this jumbo jet disappear into a white sky was ridiculous. So that’s happening up above my head. And then below my feet, a wave came like gently about up to my shins, like were not even shin really. I would say upper ankle, like where you do a frappe from, and that cold water took the sand from under my feet. So I was having this up above sensation and below my toes sensation. And my body felt sandwiched between these senses and it was really remarkable. And I know it maybe sounds simple or silly, but I felt so small in that moment. Um, but also so big in my ability to feel so it was a special moment. I wanted to put a pin in that and celebrate it out loud. So there you go. Good job life. Great job ocean. Thank you, Dockweiler I love you, Daniel. That is my win. Now you go, what’s going well in your world. Any sensational experiences to claim as wins, bring it. Let’s go  

Sweet. Congratulations. Let’s keep winning together. And let’s certainly keep up with these sensational experiences. And let’s also dig into these Qs. Um, I got so many Qs, actually. Qs are questions, PS, um, and quite a few personal ones, actually. So even though I do have a pretty good, ‘how did you meet your husband’ story? And dare I say, and even better engagement story. I think for time sake, I’ll filter for the career slash industry slash make stuff related questions, which I promise are no less exciting. They also include true love. So get ready, get set. And let’s dig in. 

The first question is what is the best advice you would give to an aspiring dance teacher?  

Two parter. You guys know me very hard to get one answer out of me. You almost always get two. Number one, and this is something I’m, I’m still very much learning for myself. You don’t have to teach it all at once. Not every day needs to have all of the things. Not every lesson needs to teach everything from every angle. It can’t. And in fact, if that is your approach, this feeling, this desire to give it all all the time, it actually can be really difficult to process that amount of information coming from those many different directions. I know this to be true because I have been a student in my voice therapy as of late and too many things, too many ways of thinking too many modes or schools of thought on any one thing can be really overwhelming, especially to a beginner. So, um, yeah, that I would say, I think my best teachers have showed restraint and calculated timing regarding when they teach what things and when certain things get introduced. So there’s that. And then there’s this, I believe it was my favorite artist of all time of all planets in this universe or any other, the one and only Tom Sachs that said “Every time you teach something is an opportunity to understand it, deeper yourself.” Okay. That speaks to me on two different levels. Number one, this quote lifelong learner level. Yes, I do believe in being a student forever and that really great students make really great teachers and vice versa, but I think it’s really important to keep learning, not just the things that you don’t know, not just to be seeking new knowledge, but to keep learning the things you already know to learn them deeper. Maybe even so deeply that you come to question them and might even change your mind about what you believed to be true about them. There is an exciting journey and a very good example in that I think it’s a good example to set, to always be learning, to always be questioning. And of course, to always be knolling get into it. Um, okay. Moving on. 

What are some of the ways you have educated yourself on racism in dance? Yes. I love this question. One of the ways I have done this is through virtual workshops. Karida Griffith. Holy smokes is a saint, um, Karisa offers an incredible six week course that offers age-appropriate fact-based lessons about race and dance history. The program is called R3D, R Three D, which stands for roots, rhythm, race, and dance. So that’s easy to remember and we’ll definitely link to that program. In the show notes of this episode, she also offers a free training series that I 10 out of 10 would recommend, especially if you teach, tap, hip hop or other forms that stem from the African diaspora, which is damn near all forms of dance for the record. Um, let’s see. Also in 2020, I participated in Moncell Durden’s Intangible roots workshop. Moncell was also a guest on the podcast I’ll link to that episode and to intangible routes. Um, I also took the Passion Fruit Seeds workshop, a virtual workshop organized by Passion Fruit Dance Company. Let’s see, um, this year a little more recently, I started reading a book called A little Devil in America notes in praise of black performance by Hanif Abdurraqib. And I really recommend this book 10 out of 10 stars, all available stars. Um, but I think another thing that’s really important to mention an area of personal development that I probably don’t mention as much is simply having conversations, talking to people with different lived experience than mine. Um, and these are mostly conversations that happen off the air, not on the podcast and not broadcast conversations. And I think that’s really important. Um, I would love to close out this question by asking all of you the same question because, um, I know I am just scratching the surface in my personal work on this subject. So I would love to know what am I missing. Um, if you’ve experienced breakthrough educational moments on the subject of racism and dance, I would love to hear about it. Any programs, any conversations, any resources, please bring them my way. Um, perhaps the best way to do that is on Instagram. You can tag me in a post at words that move me podcast or a direct message. I’m open to that as well. Whereas the movie podcast and or I am DanaDaners on the gram, uh, let’s keep moving forward. 

This is one of my favorite questions and it also broke my heart. Are you still a mime at heart? Oh yes, of course I am. Um, and this broke my heart a little bit because I am a mime at heart more than in body. And that makes me sad because, you know, basically I simply don’t practice. My body has not been miming for a very long time, but I believe that a mime at heart and in art makes the invisible visible. And perhaps I am flattering myself by saying this, but I believe that’s what I do. It is certainly something I enjoy to do is to give something that doesn’t have a form, a form shape structure feeling. Um, so thank you for this question. I think it’s reminded me of what I love most about mime and perhaps might even move me to be miming in the very near future. Maybe even today, who knows fine. I’ll put it on the calendar. I’m going to put it on it’s going on the calendar next week. I will be miming. 

Next question. Ooh, what job stretched you the most as a dancer slash as a human? Hmm. I think these might be two different answers. Is that okay? You know, me two answers for everything. The job that stretched me most as a dancer would undeniably be my first world tour with Mr. Justin Timberlake. That was the Future Sex Love Show. I was 20 when we started working on that show, I was also Marty Kudelka’s assistant at that time. And Marty was the co creative director and the choreographer of that show. It was my first world tour and I was jumping and do a big, super steep learning curve. Um, you know, those like end of the world disaster movies where the big wave comes and crushes the city of San Francisco or something like that. That was the learning that I did on that job. I learned about performance. I learned about mechanics. I learned about show structure, song, structure, um, how to work and collaborate as part of a team, how to take direction, how to follow through, I mean, you name it. I learned it or at least started learning it on that job. So thank you, JT. Thank you, Marty, for bringing me on in that role. Um, and thank you also to all of the dancers I was on the road with. I learned so much from each of you, Nanci Anderson, Michelle Martinez, Eddie Morales,, Ava Bernstein, Mitchell, lovey shout out Tammy Fey, longtime friend. And of course Marty Kudelka himself. Um, we also for a moment had had the pleasure of our swing joining us at the time the swing was Kenny Wormwald. Um, I am always learning from all of you all and just think so fondly of that time, steep learning curve, super challenging, super worth all of it. Now, the job that changed me most as a human I would say is probably working as an associate choreographer on in the Heights. If you haven’t already listened to the episode. Um, the podcast that I did with the rest of the choreography team, Christopher Scott, Eddie Torres Jr, Princess Serrano, Ebony Williams, and Emilio Dosal, joined by our fabulous choreo team assistant Meghan Mcferran all of us in a zoom room, hashing it out. That was so much fun. So if you want to hear more about the ways I changed as a human on that gig, listen to that full episode, cause you’ll get all that and more, but I’ll say, you know, to wrap it up kind of loosely, that I became a more compassionate creator on that project, compassionate towards myself and my process and towards the group of people I was working with and helping to represent on a big screen. It was completely transformative, that experience. So, um, big love to my In the Heights team and also to my JT family, huge, huge learning and progress. Thanks to all of you. 

Okay. Um, Ooh, here’s a good one. Do I have any advice for starting new stages of life? Well, yes, I’ve got like 90 episodes worth. Um, but I’ll say this in, in kind of in keeping with this stage theme in a very tight answer to a very big question. I think my best advice for starting new stages of life is to find your light. Does it need to be a spotlight? It could be a soft light, but find your light. This might mean bringing it with you, finding a thought that can serve as your own personal lighting technician follow spot, if you will, that can follow you and keep you illuminated and illuminating. This is the secret. 

Next question. And I love this one so much too. What is the biggest thing that you learned about yourself as a mover through the pandemic? What is the biggest thing you learned about yourself as a mover through the pandemic? Frighteningly enough, I think it’s that the thing I love most about dance is dancers. Once people stopped being a part of the dance equation, I liked doing it less and I did it less. And I think that that’s okay. I really do think my biggest takeaway was that I love dancers, um, and little teaser here in next week’s episode, I am joined by one of my greatest inspirations, a dear friend and mega monster epic creator, super powerhouse megaforce Nina McNeely. Nina will be joining me on the podcast. And we talk a little bit about exactly that. So do turn it turn in. Oh, that’s cool. I should start saying that turn in to next week’s episode. Like chaine turn or little triplet turn. You can do an inside turn. You could do a fouette turn. You could do a, any kind of turn, just turn in next week, but don’t, but also be turning out, turn out next week too, but also, I mean, turn in, I’m here for it.  Wow. We’re back. I love movers and I learned it in the pandemic. I did get to a place where I was dancing more. It’s possible that I danced more during the pandemic than I did the year before. Um, mm, no year before was In the Heights. No, no way I danced more. Um, but I did get to a place where I enjoyed dancing alone in my dining room, but, uh, yeah, that was it. That’s the takeaway. I love movers. 

Okay. Next question. How do you maintain good mental health? This is a big question. And I think there are a lot of ways to do this. My favorite way. I think the most useful way, the most effective way is by managing my mind. And I talk about mind management a lot on the podcast. What I mean when I say that is that I, I try my best to sift through the facts of the world, the neutral unchangeable circumstances that happen in day-to-day life. And I try to remain conscious and in control of what I think about those facts, the facts of the world. Um, I try to be deliberate about how I respond and, um, that is, is really my number one practice for maintaining good mental health is by separating my thoughts from the facts and remembering how much agency I have over my experience of the world. Um, that is a big one. 

Next question. What is the best advice you ever received? Ooh, um, people live given me life advice and pretty profound stuff. I think a lot of it shows up here on the podcast, but I don’t know if I’ve talked about this one moment and it struck me like these words of wisdom speared me like straight through the sternum sternum, spear pierced my ever loving being. And, um, these words came to me on set one day on set for Justin Timberlake’s Suit and Tie music video, which was directed by David Fincher. I was assisting Marty Kudelka and I remember what I was wearing. I remember my shoes weren’t that comfortable. I remember bustling around being really busying myself, trying to be as effective as possible, trying to be useful, trying to be in more places than one at once. And I remember David turning to me at one point pretty cold. I mean, I do think he’s a warm person, but this, this moment in that he looked at me felt pretty cool on the temperature spectrum. He said, can I give you some advice? And I like every muscle in my body contracted and I respond, yes, of course. I’m like searching for my notebook, please. What is w what is this advice? And he said, and I don’t know if these were, if he was the first person to speak these words, but this is how these words came to me. He said from the comfort of his director’s chair, never stand when you can sit and never sit when you can lie down. And in this one moment, I knew that I was doing too much, uh, much too much. And, um, I’ve reminded myself and other people of that onset so often never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lay down. Thank you, David Fincher, for those words and for your incredible body of work. Thank you so much for, for all of it. 

Um, okay. We push onward moving straight ahead. Ooh, tough one. Okay. How do we, as a community shift our mindset from believing or from viewing, sorry, from viewing styles hierarchically to equally, how do we as a community shift our mindset from viewing styles hierarchically to equally? So there’s this built-in assumption in a lot of institutions and in the public perception that not all the answers created equal, that there is good dance and there’s bad dance and there’s meaningful dance, and there is not meaningful dance and or valuable dance or less valuable dance.  And, um, to this question, I will, I will suggest a starting point. I think that we shift our mindset a similar way that we shift our weight. And that is first by thinking I am going to shift my weight. Um, and then of course, by doing it, I think I will shift my weight to my left foot. I start by moving my hip. I then move my knee. And then, um, all of a sudden bringing my weight off of my right foot in a way from the microphone onto my left foot. But I started by thinking I would like to shift my weight and then I do it one tiny micro adjustment at a time. I think that’s how an individual shifts their mindset. And I think that that’s how a community must shift their mindset as well. And that is starting with individuals. I think communities are made up of individuals. So if an individual decides I would like to shift my mindset and then they shift their mindset and then they converse with other individuals, perhaps encourage other individuals to shift their mindset as well. That is how big change happens with small adjustments. 

Okay. Moving forward. Where are we? Uh, ha uh, Michelle Latimer dance academy, alumni shows up in the Q and A nice, super shout out Michelle. Oh, you have to come on the podcast. This is going to happen. Okay. An MLDA alum asks what was LA like when I moved there. And I think I might have to do a full podcast episode on exactly this like a walk down memory lane. It was awesome. It was different. And it was the same as it is now. It was all of that. It was awesome. It was awful. I, my apartment had cockroaches. I totaled my car and my first year out here, it was hot. There was great dance class. There were parties. I mean, it was a ball. It was, it was awesome. We’re going to put that in a parking lot and come back to it for sure. 

Okay. This last question was not submitted on the gram, but I have had two friends reach out in the last month. Hi, Lena. Hi, Courtney. Asking if I have any advice for agency interviews, like what do you do? And what do you say when an agency shows interest and you set up an interview and you really, really, really don’t want to mess it up now? I don’t think my two friends are alone in this. So I will share the advice that I gave to them. And that is this most people when sitting on the other side of the zoom screen or on the other side of a table, from an agent or, or a potential employer, if we want to zoom out and consider all professional interviews, um, most people really get caught up in trying to sell themselves in this particular instance where you are looking for an agent’s representation. Remember that this relationship goes both ways. You want to walk away feeling like you just got the best car on the lot. And so do they, so ask them questions, ask about the features of their business, know that you are great and find out how great they are. Also, if you don’t already know, try to find out who will be in that meeting. You’ve probably heard the saying, know your audience. I think in this case, and in many cases, it’s very helpful to a few more things, ask questions in general. I think questions are good, especially questions that reveal how much, you know, not how much you don’t know. You might ask. For example, how many castings are going out for people with your look and skillset? You could ask what commission they take my guess is that it’s 10%. It should be. If it’s higher, you might ask why you could ask them to explain their ideal client. Oh, and you should probably be prepared with what you do not like about your current situation, especially if your current situation includes an agent. I think it’s really important to let people know what works well for you and what you’re looking for. Have an idea of the work that you want to be doing. Have a few names in mind of people that you’d like to work with. Absolutely know your strengths and areas in which you would like to improve and be yourself. Isn’t that just the pits. When tell you to do that, when you’re like, what’s the answer? How do I do this? Right? And they’re like, by being yourself and you’re like, dang, what have I been doing for 25 years? How do I not know how to be myself? You do. You do know how to be yourself. You’ve been doing it for a long time. And I’m telling you right now, yourself is enough. Sit down, be a human talk to a human, be yourself and find out who they are. And if it is a good fit, it will fit. And it will be if it isn’t, that doesn’t mean you’re bad. Just keep on trucking. All right. My friends, I thought we’d finished this episode out with a burnout round. Um, these are the short and fast questions that came through the Q and A that actually really made me giggle and kind of have deep thoughts. Um, but I tried to not answer them until this moment. I want to really truly give the visceral response here. So in this moment, favorite dance move, uh, pas de bourses, least favorite dance move, easy. One C jump hate them. Never can’t won’t don’t want to ever do that step ever again. How many combos have I done?  Oh, God hundreds, hundreds and hunt maybe is 1500, two thousand?. 1500? Maybe. I don’t know, but I do know that every time I get in the car and drive to a destination that is more than five minutes away. I hear a song that I have either danced to or choreographed to do. So that’s that? Oh, and PS these are mostly all these in classic rock radio stations. So take that for what it’s worth. Okay. Favorite movie. Ooh, impossible. But it would be the Lord of the Rings trilogy. If you let me pick three favorite show right now and why easy Ted Lasso, because it is evidence that you don’t have to be manipulative to be great. And that obscure musical theater references make life better. Um, okay. Final question. What is moving me right now? The answer to that question right now is time.  I have got to go. I’m late for a grill and, um, I love you all so much. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Keep them coming. And of course, keep it funky. Ooh, wait, wait, wait. One more thing.

This is important. We are making the first ever words that move me community production. It is a film. It is called Eight counts. Subtitle. The words that movie, thanks for the subtitle. Courtney Darlington, super shout out. Um, and if you want to be a part of making this movie, which is a community collaboration made by the words that move me community members, then you’ve got to join the community. Um, the community is a subscription membership. I will link to the membership website in the show notes to this episode, whoa. In the show notes website, webisode time, Dana breathe. I’ve got time. Where was I? Membership website will be in the show notes.  Um, memberships start as low as $3 per month. But if you ask me the real value comes with the top tiers, I’ll be totally honest. Y’all it is not about making a movie together. That is going to be so fun. This is about information and support so that you can be making work that you really want to be doing. Now we can do that work together and we can do that work apart. You can continue listening to the podcast. This is great, but to be a part of this collaborative film making process, you do need to be a member of the community. Um, if you join now in the month of October and don’t like it, if you’re like, Nope, this is not for me. This is not the value I was looking for. I will give you your money back. Yep. All of it.  Well, all of it that you gave to me for this membership, I do not have the funds to give you all of your money back from all of the things for all of the time. But I believe in the community. I love what we are doing. I love all of you community members. Um, and if, if you are not part of the wisdom com please do join us. I think you will love it. And I’m excited to see you over there. Link in the show notes, see you soon. Um, now you can go keep it funky. Talk to you later. 

Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating and review because your words move me too. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right. That’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

This may be the first time we really dig into the subject of status and power dynamics on the podcast! FUN!!!  In this episode,  insiders and outsiders are under the microscope, and we approach the subject from the position of moving into a new role or industry AND I’ll point out how this power dynamic can shift during the course of ONE audition , or pitch meeting.  I hope that after listening to this episode, you focus less on meeting the dress code/ getting on the guest list/ paying the cover.  I hope this inspires you to become the VIP that you are and make the work that others want to be in on.

Quick Links:

Re Listen to Episode 75 with Smac: https://www.thedanawilson.com/podcast/ep-75-being-creative-idiots-with-smac-mccreanor

Transcription:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight, but don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Hello, Hello, my friend. Welcome to Words that Move Me. I’m Dana. I am so glad that you are here. Um, if you have been listening to these episodes in chronological order, then, you know, I spent some time at home in Colorado recently, and while I was there, I got to cash in on some way overdue quality time with my nieces, seven and almost four years old. And holy smokes, they’re the most special we got to play and cook and, um, watch some movies. Why is it now when I’m trying to make this sound beautiful and interesting that I cannot recall a single artful or exciting thing that we did. Everything we did was artful and exciting, including watch a couple of movies targeted towards their age bracket. One of them was Bigfoot Family. Don’t know if you’ve heard of this film, Bigfoot family and Mitchell’s versus machines. I can’t recall if it was Mitchell’s versus machines or Mitchell’s versus The machines. I actually did not double-check the titles of said films before stepping into the booth. But I do know, and I can tell you that the heroes of these films, both of them are young people with the capacity to edit video. These two heroes are like fully in their cartoon world editing in cartoon premiere pro, and they’re like dragging and dropping effects and adding the star wipe and adding, you know, like doing premiere pro, like I’m looking at the premiere pro timeline, but I’m looking at a cartoon. It was wild. I’m just kind of marveling at that because the heroes of the movies that I watched growing up spent time in malls, like at the mall and the heroes of these films spend time in premiere pro. It was fascinating me so way to go people, making family content and normalizing, making things over consuming things. Um, perhaps this isn’t a deliberate thing. Perhaps they did some market testing and found that, Hey, you know what, everybody, between 12 and 16 is a content creator these days. So we’re just making where the audience is wanting is possible, but it was just, I was moved by that. So hats off, good job people making family content. I should really be going to get on that. Definitely going to get on that. Anyways, I digress, while watching Mitchell’s versus machines, the machines, whatever it is we’re going to call it M versus M the lead character, a teenage girl on her way into film school says I’ve always felt a little different than everyone else. So I did what any other outsider would do and made weird art. And that reminded me of a topic that I have been meaning to dig into on the podcast. And that is the notion of insiders and outsiders. We’re going to save the notion of quote, weird and weird art. For another time today, we are talking about status. We’ll talk about that from the position of moving into a new role or industry. And I will point out how this power dynamic can shift during the course of one audition or pitch meeting or treatment. I think this is the first time I’ve really addressed status and like this type of power dynamic on the podcast. And I am thrilled to dive in, but first wins. Hey, today I am celebrating such a massive win. My friend, oh, I am still smiling about this one. Just chuckling here, standing alone by myself. My win is that I was invited to the Quest Crew family Dimsum a few days ago. I had a play date scheduled with, uh, our dear friend Smac from episoode question, mark, wait for it.  Yes. Episode 75, confirmed. And Smac’s boyfriend Ryan is a member of quest crew. And so Smac extended the invitation in my direction to join the quest crew as their first ever special guest at a family brunch. I called it brunch, which is basically dim sum for the record. This was my first experience with dim sum. And my first experience with quest grew as a unit in one sitting, we can call it a sitting cause we were sitting down for the most part, the actual win, the win-win, the big win of this was that we had a group share a one by one, share. Everybody had everybody at the table, stood up one at a time and had to contribute a kindness in my direction, a kind sentence or two about me. And that sentence had to be danced in the vocabulary of my favorite style, which is locking to make matters more interesting, certainly more laughable. We were not able to repeat moves. Now there are 11 people at the table and, um, barely more than 11 moves in the vocabulary of locking. I am grossly overstating obviously, but I mean, you got your wrist roll. You got your Sam Point, you got your, uh, Stop and Go. You got your Scooby-Doo, you got your School Bot. You got what else? We got, obviously, an Up lock. You got your lock lock. You’ve got, I mean, I’m going to hate myself later, but I think like, I think I’m out, right? So 11 people making up little solo, kindnesses, kindness dances, and throwing them in my direction. Um, I had to throw one at myself too, which just imagine what that looks like all in the middle of a dim sum. Whoa, dim sum restaurant in Alhambra best dimsum of my life. And that’s not just because it was the only, but simply because it was the best I am floored. I’m still smiling. Now you go talk to me about the kind of dance exchanges in your world. Tell me what’s going well, what have you eaten that you loved? You could even celebrate a win after having eaten something that you don’t love. And now you know that you don’t love that. And that can be a win as well. I know it’s kind of a stretch, but you know, I’m just, I’m extending that kindness to you. You can put that as a win. They’re willing to bet. You know what? I digress. Roll the music.  

Congratulations. I am so happy for you and I am so chatty, I suppose my win should have been huge successes with my voice pathologist who has been helping me tremendously. I think I could get better about breathing more and talking less with that said before we get into the episode, I need to make not one but two prefaces. Prefaces number one, the word cool will be used a lot. In this episode, you may experience semantic satiation, shout out Ted lasso. A semantic satiation is when a word is used so much that it begins to lose its meaning. Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I actually think it would be very interesting to live in a world where cool has no meaning. I’m giving you this warning because if you happen to be listening to this episode at a party, which you might and you are of legal age, you might choose to play a drinking game and have a, a sip or a shot. Anytime you hear the word cool. You might even decide to have a party just so that you can do that. I support you, but I would prefer that you do something more productive, like maybe 10 push-ups or crunches or stanzas of poetry every time I say cool. Um, or you could simply listen and let cool wash away into meaninglessness. That’s preface number one. Preface number two is that I don’t actually believe that there is a quote unquote cool kids club. I don’t believe there is any single inner sanctum of people in the entertainment industry. I don’t even think that there are many cool kid clubs. I simply think people like to work with their friends, people that you know, people that you know, you have shared values with and people whose way of operating is similar to your own. That said for the next several minutes, I will be talking about clubs, the cool kids club. And I’m just telling you right now, before I do that, that I don’t think they exist. However, this metaphor, this thought in my head might be a useful device. I really hope that it is true story. This is not a third preface, by the way, this is just an intermission before the first act. I do not love clubs, never have. Even in my prime club going age, I did not like going to clubs. I would much prefer a house party, a barbecue, any place with a loud boombox play in the jams that doesn’t involve, like number one, a cover charge, number two, a line to get in, number three, like bass that is so low. I can feel it in my knee caps, um, or a dress code. So there that’s, I think that’s probably pretty much, oh, also like a $13 drink. That’s watered down. Not a fan.So Bing, Bing, which is big bang, bang. I don’t like clubs moving right along into the first act. If the cool kids club was actually a club, you would probably find yourself waiting in a line to get in. You would probably wind up paying a cover unless you’re on some sort of list. You might possibly make your way to a VIP section. And then if all goes, well, eventually you go home. You go to bed and you wake up the next day in this analogy, in this metaphor, I’m going to start by making a comparison between the rules and cost of entry to this club, to the rules and cost of entry to quote unquote, the industry or like the cool kids part of the industry.  I’m embarrassed to admit this, but I have witnessed in certain circles. It is truly as simple as wearing cool sneakers or simply having cool stuff to be welcomed in to the inner sanctum. The, the king of cool might actually talk to you because you’re wearing cool shoes or have a cool watch or you’re driving a cool car or using a cool purse or in my case, a cool backpack. Dammit. I love good backpack. And if you have a good, if you have a good backpack, chances are, I will talk to you about it. I’m not saying I’m the king of cool. Let’s back up. Do I actually think this is cool? Do I think it’s cool that you, you might evaluate someone’s worth or worthiness based on material possessions? Do I condone this type of behavior? No. Duh, not really. No, but have I seen it happen?  Yes. Have I considered actually paying the cost of cool sneakers or a watch or you know, something else material simply to ease my way in? Yes, absolutely. Is that wrong? No, I don’t think so. I think it’s, I think it’s neutral and sometimes it’s worth the cost of sneakers to have a zero friction entry point to the people and places that are interesting to you. However, I will say this buying the cool shoes, car, watch backpack, house, yacht. I think you see where I’m going with. This is a very slippery and costly slope. It’s a slippery slope. It’s an in slippery slope that very well may lead you to an unhappy life at, at worst at best. Maybe walking around in shoes that aren’t that comfortable. Let’s put the metaphor aside. You can look the part into the club, but I don’t know that that’s do you see how I said metaphor side? You can look the part and get in to get into the group or to get into conversation, but looking the part won’t last. If you don’t love it, if you can’t afford it and if you can’t live that way, right? Can you imagine having to abide by a dress code for the rest of your life? Hm, no. Thank you. No, thank you. Now let’s consider the guests list. Shall we? It’s possible that even without meeting the dress code and without paying a cover, you could get into a club simply by being on the list or being someone’s plus one. Now this part of the analogy is pretty self-explanatory entry by association or cool by association. Many of you have already benefited from this. I sure as hell know I have. Can you think of a time you got in somewhere on someone else’s arm, so to speak, or have you ever helped others to get in? How do you do that? What does that look like for you? And how do you feel when that happens? What is actually happening there? Are you grateful? Are you gracious? Are you extending a kindness? It’s something to think about that. I find fascinating. So on the, on the entry point, sometimes it’s being on the list.  

Sometimes it’s looking the part, but most of the time getting in comes down to paying the cover in real clubs. This is usually money, but in the metaphor, the cost of entry to me is either information or skill or both. And you’ll probably not get in without one or both of those, two things, information and skill. And that is what I want to talk about. That’s what I want to remind you of. That’s what I want to remind myself of. I think many people forget what they have to offer. They think the club is there to offer them something fun, access, excess, but the club would be nothing without people in it. In real life, people think that the in crowd, the top, you know, working person in their field can offer them something. Maybe it’s fun. Maybe it’s more access, usually it’s work. And that is what people focus on instead of focusing on what they, the outsider can offer the in crowd.  When I first made my way to LA and began my professional training. Yeah. I’ll call it professional training, like training to be a professional dancer versus training to be a good dancer. I think those are different things. I knew what I could offer in the character department. I knew what I could offer in the skill department, pretty broad, but general training in many different styles. Very good with counts, quick learner, great memory. I knew I was reliable. I knew I was sober. I wouldn’t be hung over or strung out. I knew I was at very least a little bit funny and a lot, a bit friendly. So I led with those qualities and I think those are the qualities that got my foot into the door, or like the entryway, like up to the coat check of this club, this metaphorical club. And then eventually I made it my job to really have information insights and like Intel straight up intelligence that other people didn’t have to remember things that other people didn’t remember to expose myself to things that other people didn’t expose themselves to. This means cross training. This means cross culturing. That might be in misuse of that word. And I think in the long game, it’s those qualities and skills that are probably what got me into the metaphorical VIP section. And what I’m learning now is that from both sides of that red rope, the grass is greener. On the other side, the inside of a VIP section looks a lot like any other corner of the club, except for usually there’s less room there. There’s people doing stuff. There’s a red rope around them. They look out into the masses at the movement, drawn to certain things, looking for certain things, looking at talented people, looking for entertainment, looking for beauty. Now the metaphor might get a little bit unsavory here, but I do think that that’s more or less what happens from inside the VIP. We look out on the other side, there’s people looking in wondering who’s there. How, how are they very important people what’s really going on in there anyways, what I’d like to hypothesize and someday prove is that anything you can do inside a VIP section, you can also do outside of a VIP section. I’d like to further extend that hypothesis to say anything you can do in the club, you can do outside the club. Do you see where I’m going with this? You can feel important. You can feel exclusive. You can do all of that with more space from outside, outside the red rope and outside the club walls, you can have fun. You can dance. You can network. You do not have to be in the cool club. And certainly not in the VIP section to make moves, to enjoy yourself. You can really truly feel important, feel exclusive and feel good about yourself with more space from outside. Here’s another interesting thing about the red rope. You have to leave the roped off area at some point to get anywhere else. You have to leave that VIP section to go pee, to get a drink that isn’t vodka and orange juice or cranberry juice. That’s sitting on your table to get fresh air. You have to leave the very important person place. And then what, once you’re outside of the red rope, are you only a minorly important person, a slightly important person, a regular person, hysterical to me that a person’s value would be determined by the placement of a red rope or a red wall. If I were to broaden that statement to include the dance sphere, the red rope, the inside or outside the club does not determine your importance unless you think it does. Let’s keep moving through this club analogy. We’re almost on the other side. I promise. Think about the day after you went to the club, you probably wore heels. Everyone listening probably wears heels to the club. Um, your feet probably hurt. You may be feeling hung over, but how do you feel? How do you feel the day after going to a club or a big event even do you feel awesome because you enjoyed yourself? Do you feel awesome because you had proximity to someone you think is special or famous or very important, do you feel awful because of lack of sleep or overindulgence in something, do you feel awful because perhaps you compromised a personal value to fit in or to get in true story. I have judged myself for pretending to enjoy myself at clubs. I have secretly hated on myself for singing along to lyrics of songs that I don’t like. And for dancing to music that I don’t like, I’ll be real. I have judged myself for judging the DJ. Where is this going? Sometimes? What looks like fun is not actually what’s happening. The person that you are looking at on the other side of that red rope is possibly dare. I say, probably punishing themselves in some way, moral of the story is you can punish yourself or praise yourself from inside the VIP, from outside the VIP or from outside the club entirely. And the beautiful news is that you get to decide, you get to decide if being in there is important to you. You get to decide how much you pay to get in. Or if you pay to get in, you can decide that meeting a dress code is totally okay with you. You can decide on committing to that now and changing your mind about that later.  This is simply another way to think about the in crowd to think about what you’re willing to exchange to get in and to think about how much power you have from outside. Now, I want to talk about this notion, this, this idea of power in the power dynamic in inside versus outside. You probably are assuming that the insider has more power and you’re probably right in most cases. So I want to talk not about that, but about this moment, this very, very quick moment, when that power dynamic switches, this happens in almost every successful audition or pitch, or even in making a treatment when asked to pitch or make a treatment for something or audition for something.  There is someone else who gets to decide whether you are allowed in to the job or not. There is an insider and you, the subject, the auditioner, the pitcher are outside trying to get in, but something beautiful can happen during an audition, during a pitch while making a treatment. And that is the shift where the outsider convinces the insider, that they are, what the insider wants to be in on that they are the person that can help the insider create an inside world that makes outsiders drool. And so within one hour, within one meeting within one PDF, an outsider who knows how to introduce themself, a person who knows how to inspire someone and a person who knows how to reassure someone. Those people have in, in my view, even more power than an insider because they are both. They are a person who is outside enough to see from a 30,000 foot perspective, not from a tiny confined space behind a red velvet rope, but from way out there, they can see they can operate freely.  They can move quickly. They don’t need to be stifled by the rules of the club. They have the ability to begin to switch or to remain the outsider. They have the best of both worlds, cheers, to being an outsider who can inspire the insiders to be more like outsiders. I now, now insider and outsider. Those are starting to lose their meaning. You know, it’s a great way to demystify a topic. Just have a podcast where you say nothing, except the topic like insider outsider, insider outsider, insider outsider, and then the topic will have lost meaning. And therefore, uh, the audience will have lost interest. I’m sorry if I lost you. Wrap it up Wilson. I hope that after listening to this podcast, you have less interest in meeting the dress code, getting on a guest list or paying the cover and more interest in knowing so deeply that what you do is incredible.  Whether it’s looked at, from the inside or from the outside, remember that the grass is always greener. Those inside the rope are looking outside. I hope that this episode has also reminded you that there is a generation of very young and assumingly capable young batch of artists on the come up. So let us not be concerned about whether or not we are in or out of the cool club and let us be concerned with our work, with our skills and with the information that we seek and the information that we share with that. My dear friends, I bid you ado, I’m going to go hit the club. Kidding. Not funny June is that it? But I said it there. I’m just going to let it rest. Really. I probably won’t see a club probably for the rest of the year. Maybe if you get me to a club, congratulations, there better be live music.  That’s all I’m saying. Get out into the world, get into a club somewhere, the club, your club. I really, I get myself into a hole. I just dig and dig, trying to make these wrap-ups. And here’s what I’m just, I’m just going to say it. Keep it funky. I mean it, oh, and holy smokes. How have I made it all the way through an episode where I say the club this many times and not mention the only club I remember enjoying myself in thoroughly deeply into the wee hours of the morning. FunkBox New York. I miss you. I miss you so much. I, you know what? I would buy a ticket to New York just to go to funk box. I said it, it might happen. Now. You have it. That is my word. That is my word funkbox. I’ll see you soon. Funky people. I’ll talk to you later bye!

Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating and review because your words move me too. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right. That’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

In this episode, I talk about why many creative people feel the need to take on the world by themselves… Then, I hand out all of my favorite ways to do more by NOT doing it alone.  The key is to simplify.  It really is that simple. Not EASY, but SIMPLE. 

Quick Links:

Wyzant and Lynda.com <- for general Tutoring).
I’ll ask obvious but GOOD questions
Contest fines or enrollment fees: https://donotpay.com/ My tailor in the valley: Master Shoe Repair

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: Hello. Hello and welcome. I’m Dana. This is words that move me. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? I am stoked that you are here. Thank you so much for being here. I am exceptionally jazzed on last week’s episode. Thank you all so much for your feedback and for loving Reshma Gajjar as much as I do. Wow. That was a good one. Um, if you haven’t already go give that a, a swoop swoop was the first word that came to my head, swoop that out and enjoy.  Um, all right, today I am talking directly to myself and also to you, but I think I really need to hear this right now. So there’s a chance that you do too. I remember finding at some point during the lockdown, a love for simple life, simple pleasures, simple, but not easy tasks and so on and so on. And you know what? Life is so sneaky. I feel like it has crept up and all of the sudden I’m over committed. Again. I am overwhelmed again, and I’m like, what? I swear I already figured this out. I have already learned how to be productive and calm, motivated, and relaxed, focused, and feeling free. I swear I have done this work already, but apparently it is not at the forefront. So I’m going to stand myself in front of this microphone and re-do re-learn. Remind myself of some of the work that I have already done about simplifying my life. I’m excited to do that for myself. And I’m excited to share some of my favorite tips and tricks for simplifying. What can seem like a very complicated life in a very complex world. Uh, but first wins. Yes. I have like a grand slam of wins today. So get ready. Sports references are not my thing, but you know what? I’m going to run with it. Okay. First one is that I’ve been watching a lot of maybe too much Ted Lasso. We’ll talk about it later. Here’s what I’m really celebrating today. I’m celebrating a visit back home to Colorado and spending some safe and quality time with my family. My beautiful family. Ugh. Shout out Aunties, Uncles, Maya, my brother, my sister, my brother and sister in law. The nieces. Oh, Swoon my dance teacher, the one and only Michelle Latimer. The one and only Chelsea Latimer, AKA my best friend since we were tiny, tiny tots and Chelsea’s daughter, Sunny, double swoon. Um, oh, and also our guest from episode 70, Erika Morri. So in general, shout out Colorado. I love that place. I loved my time there. I made a peach jam. You guys with peaches from my sisters peach tree. Um, it rained. It was gorgeous. Oh. And I did an art project with my mom. Shout out, Stan, stay tuned for more on the art project and yeah. Um, back to top the wins off, Mr. Ted Lasso watched a lot of that. Um, which is probably why my wins list is so long wink, wink. Um, if you are not watching Ted Lasso 10 out of 10 would recommend, okay, I’ll stop there. Ted lasso winning. Now you go, what’s going well in your world.  

Awesome. Rock on. Congratulations. I’m so proud of you. Please keep winning all, keep coaching. I will stop with the Ted Lasso references eventually. Um, but here’s, here’s what we’re going to talk about today. Somewhere along the way, somebody, some very clever someone wrote and sold the story of the self-made man. They made this story about this person that climbed from the bottom to the top, all by their lonesome, the story of rags to riches, and we all bought it. We bought it in hardcover. We read it every night before we go to bed. We are so subscribed to the story. And now that I think about it, I’m thinking that it was probably the same person that bottled and sold the virtue of the one man band, um, that we drink, like it’s water. And I am just rocked by how deeply I believe. And I’m sure so many of us believe and might not even be aware of the thinking that we should be able to succeed on our own. That’s what I want to talk about today because lately I’m starting to disagree. I really am. But I see it all over the place in my friends and myself and people I work with. I see us showing ourselves evidence of other people who’ve done it. We’re always talking about the people who are self-made or who did it themselves. And we hold them on a pedestal. We think it’s virtuous. We think either that I could never do that. We just look at them and reserve that story. Just for them. We think that I’m not talented or determined or financially backed enough. Like I’m not wealthy enough. I don’t have what it takes in terms of like time, talent team money, um, or worse. We think I know exactly what I need to do. I have everything I need to do it. I’m just not doing it. Woof. We just aren’t doing it because we think I don’t have time. I have other commitments. I have to wait for something else to happen first. Or maybe I could save myself all that work and someone else could just reach out and offer me some help or someone higher up the food chain might just reach out to me, take me under their wing and teach me all of their wisdoms. I could just, you know, leapfrog this whole hard work and managing my mind bit. Well, I hate to break it to you, but big name working people. The ones that you are looking up to right now are likely not going to come knock on your door and offer their time to help you figure your stuff out. Time itself will not outstretch its metaphorical hand. It will not extend itself for you. It will not stretch itself for you. Nobody is going to gift you time to work on your career. You have to gift it to yourself and you don’t have to do that alone. Let’s talk about it. On the subject of time, the slippery little sucker, it gets full of things that are important to us. And sometimes things that are not important to us, but pretend to be important to us. And then all of a sudden, another month has gone by another year, has gone by the year, is coming to a close and you might be feeling no closer to accomplishing your goal than you were back in January. When you set it for your new year, new me moment. I get it. I’ve been there. I’ve been in and out of there actually several times, but I want to, before I, you know, help you get out of there, I want to point out why there is actually not the worst. There isn’t so bad. There is probably going to happen. I think our creative lives kind of happen in cycles. Very, very productive modes, rest recovery, inspiration, modes, learning modes, sharing modes, all sorts of different kind of, you know, ebbs and flows of a creative life. It’s really, nothing is wrong with that. Unless you are thinking that something’s wrong with that. We add insult to injury of not accomplishing our goals. When we let our lack of progress, slow us down. Even further. We blame time. We blame other people for taking up our time and we blame people who have time or resources for not offering those to us. And of course we blame ourselves for simply not getting down to business. What we are doing is beating ourselves up.  We’re down on the mat, wrestling with our circumstances and our thoughts about ourselves saying, I should be X or I should be doing Y and I’m not, which makes me bad, not good, not able to fix this hopeless unworthy. And then we don’t get help because we feel unworthy. 

So here in lies, the problem and here comes the truth. If you weren’t getting the results that you want, it likely isn’t because you don’t have time or don’t have determination. It’s because something else is missing because if you already had everything you needed, if you already had everything it takes in terms of tools, skills, et cetera, you would already have the results that you want. If it were true that you could do it yourself, you would have done it. You don’t need a different body. You don’t need more discipline. You don’t need more time. What you need is to evaluate the ways in which you are spending your time. And I know this is a strong word, but I’m going to say it wasting time. You need to evaluate the ways and the reasons for which you are wasting time. The reasons in which you are wasting time, the wasting you need to evaluate is the time wasting. For example, let’s evaluate more. I pick up my phone and scroll because I think I deserve a break. And I think I have a few minutes to spare, but then a few minutes turns into much, much more and boom, wasted time. I waste time in the mornings because I think I can get away with less time. So I hit that snooze button. I hit that snooze button again and again and again.  Boom. I think I can get away with less. And therefore I have less wasted time. How about this one? I watch another episode of Ted Lasso because I think that I have to, I think it is so good. I have to keep watching. I don’t. In fact, when I keep watching it, I get to the end and I wish I hadn’t binged it because now it’s over. There’s no more left. Tier 1 time wasted. Here’s another one. It might be me. Might be, you might be both of us. I go shopping. I go shopping for all the things I go shopping for groceries. Totally not scheduled. Just whenever I’m feeling like. I think the thing that I need is out there in the world instead of in my head, that’s when I go shopping and I will shop for anything, mind you, but the feeling that I don’t have, what it takes or I don’t have the thing I need instead of being met by managing my mind is met by me, going out into the world and looking for something and then paying for something.  Usually something that I don’t need. Holy smokes, time wasted and occasionally money wasted. And I do those things with full consciousness. It’s not like I black out, like there’s a moment. Although usually a very quick moment where I decide to waste time. I commit to it like, oh my goodness happens a lot, but I’m getting better at it. I’m getting better at recognizing when it’s about to happen. And I’m getting better at clearing those hurdles versus running into them, just running into them, full speed and then collapsing on the floor. So cheers. I, I, I truly am getting better at this. And I know so many of you are too, so many of you who I get to work with in the words that move me community, come to me saying things like I know better or intellectually. I know what I need to do, but I just don’t feel ready like in my gut or I know I can do it. I just haven’t a lot of this conversation comes up this knowing what we should do technically theoretically, you know, hypothetically from the critically, um, I digress. I digress sounds wow. Somebody’s glad to be talking again anyways, we’re back. 

All of that knowing, but not doing or hypothesizing, but not testing. That’s all happening because knowledge, knowing what you should do in should (in quotes) do on its own will not get you the results that you want. You have to apply that knowledge. You have to stop beating yourself up with the shoulds and the shouldn’ts. Instead, remind yourself that becoming the person you want to be will require, require experimentation, exploration, evaluation, re evaluation, correction, and probably some overcorrection. If you’re a dancer. And if you want to do that all on your own, you absolutely can. But you can also find support. You can find a peer, a partner, a community, a group of people with a similar focus and hunger for doing the work. Of course you can find an agent, a manager, a person who knows things and applies knowledge about things that you don’t yet have. Oh man, I highly recommend getting to know some producers, people who understand project management find a coach or a mentor, find yourself a Ted Lasso and then get to work. And if you are listening to this, that means you have access to all of that. So come and get it. 

But first I will give you right now. You don’t even have to come and get anything, just sit right there and I will donate. I will gift. I will give gladly a few of my favorite ways that I do more by not doing it alone. When I catch myself feeling confused or thinking, I don’t know, dot dot, dot, fill in the blank. I hollered at my friend, Google, which I know most of us have gotten in good practice of, but I do not simply Google the subject that I am looking for. I Google the subject plus blog or podcast or expert witness or book or consultant. That is how you weed out the 16 year old YouTubers who in general are there to practice their video, making skills, not to help you. They might even be there to make money. That’s fine too. They might be there to be exercising their new, what is the word I’m looking for? I don’t know why they’re there, but for some reason, when I searched for things, the first seven results that show up are a very young person showing off their fancy tutorial skills. Um, not necessarily the experts in the field. So that is tip number one, Google plus blog podcast, expert witness book consultant. That is a good jumping off point. If that doesn’t solve the case, I’ll hire someone who can I love. And it was not paid to tell you that I love Lynda.com That’s where I learned to edit in Premier Pro is where I’ve learned. So, so, so many things. Um, I hear that wyzant.com, W Y Z A N T is also great for general tutoring. If you don’t know how to teach yourself, ask someone else to teach you. Speaking of asking, this brings me to point number three, ask obvious, but good questions. I’m going to link to our words that move me podcast episode about how to ask good questions. What I really want to underline is that asking questions is a good thing. Even the obvious ones. If you can ask them in a way that shows how much you know, not how much you don’t know.  

And finally, when I catch myself feeling confused, thinking all the, I don’t knows, I stop talking too much. I stop myself from talking too much by saying, I don’t have an opinion on that right now. What do you think? And then I listen. Those are my pointers for dealing with confusion. Now let’s talk about overwhelm when I feel overwhelmed, because I’m probably thinking I don’t have time. I’ll stop wasting it. I’ll stop reaching for my phone. I’ll delegate to my lovely, lovely team. Shout out Riley Higgins, shout out Malia Baker, or I’ll reach out to apps like Task Rabbit, fancy hands I hear is helpful. Um, oh, and this one is important. I’ll stop over committing. And I won’t lie about why I can’t do things. I really think that’s important. And I know there are probably a lot of people pleasers out there who might think it’s easier to lie about why they can not commit than to just explain the truth. And I will tell you something very reassuring. It is possible to tell the truth and to still be kind, give it a try. Here’s another one that’s been cropping up lately, perhaps it’s because I’m on the tail end of recovery from surgery, perhaps it’s because the world is quote, picking back up. I mean, for how long have we been saying that now? I don’t know what it is. That’s making me think that well, I do actually, it’s my brain. That’s making me think that, that I am outgunned, that I am outnumbered or that I don’t have what it takes when I hear those thoughts start cropping up. I immediately, but gently remind myself of my strengths and my skills. I don’t just think about them. I don’t just write them down. I use them. And then with my new found self confidence and willingness, I’ll ask for things I’ll ask for help or ask for a raise. I’ll ask for an upgrade. I’ll ask for a coupon. I’ll ask for better terms. I’ll ask for therapy. I’ll ask for romance. I’ll ask for things. This is huge. I think you’ll find that you’re way more likely to get things that you ask for than the things that you secretly wish someone would give you.  

Ooh, speaking of super secret, super resource www.donotpay.com This is the website that will help you contest fines or enrollment fees. Did you even know that existed, that exists? You’re welcome. Do not pay.com. They also do not pay me to say this, but they claim to be the world’s first robot, lawyer. This is how you can cut through the tape, beat the bureaucracy and find hidden money by not paying money for things that you don’t need to. So there’s that work? Here’s the other one big, big fan of this one. Stop wasting money on things I already have, for example, Hm, coffee and clothes. Those foes jumped to my mind. I will instead drink the coffee that I already have, and I’ll give the clothes that I already have a new life by maybe modifying them. I used to do this in high school. You guys, all the time, the thrift store dates were so real and so romantic, by the way, I love a thrift store date.  Um, and then it would get all my stuff home and immediately take to it with scissors and bleach add like leather straps. And, oh, this was high school. I can still do that. I can still find that joy, that pleasure in repairing or otherwise altering items that I’ve had for a while then maybe don’t fit very well. Um, or that have taken two, looking, not like a million bucks and moved them up into looking a little bit more like a million bucks, so much fun. Please do send me photos of this. If you take that advice, I want to see what you do. Also, if you are in the Los Angeles area in the valley, I would like to recommend my tailor who is on Burbank somewhere. Hold on, wait for it guys. I’m the pits. I was not prepared with that information today. Um, but it will add in the show notes, the name of my favorite alterations place in the valley. So good. So honest, very reasonable, very fast. Get into getting your stuff to fit you. It’s the best. Okay. I think we’ve covered all of it. Lastly, I will say this to simplify my life. My biggest plan is to stop saying that I should be able to do it alone. And to simply start simplifying simplified does not mean take on the world by yourself. It might mean delegate. It might mean outsource. It might mean cancel. It might mean say no. It might mean scheduling your binge-watch of Ted Lasso so that you can feel great about sticking to the schedule instead of simply clearing your entire life, um, unannounced and committing to eight hours in front of the television. Holy smokes, that actually happened. So when you wrap up this episode, when you get to where you’re going today, when you have a moment, make a quick list of the ways that you can simplify your life.  And before I let you go, I simply must remind you that I am one of the ways you can simplify your life. I offer coaching and tools that help you manage your time, your money, your mind. Well, literally everything falls under that category. So that’s, we’ll just stop right there. Awesome. The words that move me community is a membership that has formed in support of the podcast and in support of creative life. And it is an excellent resource. I really, really hope that if this episode spoke to you, you take a look into it. I adore everyone that I work with there. Um, we have some exciting projects coming up as well within the community, like internal exclusive stuff. So I urge you come check that out. TheDanawilson.com/wtmmcomm

affectionately referred to as WTMMCOMM. Um, yeah, this is just, it’s such a great place to team up to get that swift kick in the buns that you need, or maybe that gentle boost that you need. Um, a whole, whole lot of good things. So hope to see you there. And I hope that I, Hmm, here we go. Here’s the segway that I was looking for. I hope I see you there and I hope you keep it funky. Yes. Way to bring it home. Wilson when I’m calm, keep it funky. Anything else? Oh yeah. Simplifying might mean that doing less means you can do more. So go on and get at that. I’ll talk to soon. 

Me again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating and review because your words move me too. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right. That’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

Reshma Gajjar had to be my first interview back after vocal cord surgery no doubt about it.  In this episode, Reshma and I discuss the importance of humanness in dance and how silence and meditation can help to achieve it.  She also speaks about how stepping away from dance helped her change her definition of success, and how her ethnicity has both helped and hurt her at different times in an ever changing industry.  As the entertainment industry changes, one thing is clear: Reshma will always show up, and she’ll show up directly in the center of the venn diagram that represents all things natural, and all things magical.

Quick Links:

Reshma Gajjar: https://www.reshmagajjar.com/ https://www.instagram.com/reshmagajjar/

Another Day of Sun (La La Land Opening Scene): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVVqlm8Fq3Y

Inheritance Bombay to LA (Reshma’s Vintage Shop):  https://www.instagram.com/inheritancebombaytola/

“Work Song” by Hozier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH7bjV0Q_44

Kenzo: https://youtu.be/RR-DkUzNdUw?t=539

Guided Meditation:
https://hansavedas.org/

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration. You need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: Hey Friend, how are you doing? I’m so glad you’re here. I’m so glad to be talking to you with my six weeks post vocal cord surgery, voice, I’m learning so much about breadth and pitch and modulation and in general, not misusing my voice and I’m excited to be practicing with you here today. I’m even more excited to share my conversation with this week’s guest, but first wins this week. I am celebrating that. I got, I bought, I bought myself a record player. Yeah, vinyl let’s go. I’m so excited about this in my silent recovery, I spent a lot of time appreciating music and experiencing sound with great focus, tremendous focus. So this desire for a record player didn’t necessarily come from wanting the unique sound that a record player and vinyl records actually produce, but rather wanting to not lose focus. Every time I click through Spotify or iTunes on my devices in general, I find that one click leads to three clicks, which all of a sudden becomes 30 minutes of standing at my machine, my laptop, or my desktop, or, or hovering over my phone. While I scrub and in general, get distracted when the goal was simply to listen to music. So now with my record player, I dropped the needle. I drop into what I’m hearing. I drop into my body, the end hands-off ears on body glides into the zone. I am obsessed with this. It has many favorite thing. That is my win, my record player. Now you go, what’s going well in your world. What is spinning your world around? See what I did there. I’ll be patient, hit me. Congratulations. I am stoked for you. Keep winning, keep spinning, and then find yourself some stillness because today’s guest is both a riot and a rock, which I guess makes her a rockstar. Maybe I would call her a rockstar. Yes, she is solid. She is fluid. And in this episode she shares some golden insights that I think will help you to unlock a humanity in your art. We discuss subtlety. We discuss silence and the guiding principles that have led her through a most incredible career that just keeps going and going and going and going and getting more interesting and getting more. Awesome. I will stop there and I’ll start introducing you to the lovely Reshma Gajjar. Oh, and that reminds me, make sure you listen to the very end of this interview because her name is well, actually, I’ll just let you wait and find out for yourself. Enjoy this conversation with Reshma. 

Dana: Holy smokes. Reshma my friend. Welcome to the podcast. Hi.  

Reshma: Hi. Oh my God. I get to hear your voice. This is so such an honor to hear your new voice. Be one of the first  

Dana: You are the first podcast interview 

Reshma: To interact with the voice! 

Yes. How do you feel about that? 

Reshma: So I’m so like I’m flattered. I can’t believe that I was the one that you wanted to speak to first.  

There is no other one I’ve been wanting to speak to you since the day of the surgery. Um, and, and, and all the days before actually, um, we’re, we’re going to get into all of the reasons why this is the perfect first interview with my new voice. Um, but first, first, first, will you please introduce yourself? I think that everyone listening should know you, but they may not. So this is the part, the hard part where I ask you to tell us anything you want us to know about you. That could be bullets off the resume. It could be your favorite color. Um, but I’ll, I’ll let you drive what cha you got.  

Okay. I am a first generation American. I am of South Asian, Indian descent. Born from two immigrant, cute parents. Um, I’m a performing artist. I’m a collaborator. I started my career as a tour dancer touring with pop stars. And then I moved into working in the industry. And now, um, I dance and also act in films, television commercials, music videos. I also love art and being immersed in the art world side of things. When the opposite of commercial industry, I love being part of the art industry. And so I also participate and perform live performances with like companies or immersive interactive theater. Um, I love fashion. So I like doing shoots and fashion films. During the pandemic, I started a tiny little shop in my backyard called Inheritance Bombay to LA which Dana contributed to. 

Um, couple pieces. Yes.  

Beautiful pieces with great stories.  

Well, actually explain, explain this shop. I know what the shop is. What are you selling in this shop?  

I sell stories and I, so, um, vintage second-hand loved clothing curated by me. I’m a meditator. I’m a fan of old people. Um, I’m a Muppet and I’m currently also officially a filmmaker.  

I am celebrating you so big and so hard. All of those elements of you are some of my favorite elements to find in humans. Um, and think you embody them all in a beautiful ratio. Um, do you know what did today? 

What?

I watched the opening scene of La La Land 

Was coincidental or 

No, no, that was deliberate. I, I was preparing I I’m a big fan of you. And if you do not know Reshma you actually do because you’ve seen La La Land guaranteed If you’re listening to this podcast. Um, and Reshma is the introduction. She is the introduction to the introduction of the highway scene, uh, that we call traffic, um, Another Day of Sun and I watched it this morning and I cried because number one, all of, I mean, not all, but so many of my favorite people, I had honestly sort of forgotten you set it off so beautifully, so naturally. And I feel summer heat when I look at you do that performance, but I also feel really cool. I’m like, oh, I’m with the cool girl. I’m going to be fine. Um, but then you’re joined by Hunter and then you’re joined by DMO  And then rejoined by Jillian, Michael comes out, Liz Imperio comes out. I mean, Nathan Prevost who was just my on-camera husband and 

Mecca Cindra 

Dom Chaiduang

Stephanie! 

Oh my God. This list is long, this list is long. And the shot was also long. The shoot was long, it was long. And this is brilliant. I could talk about La La land for a long time. I’m not going to, but I am going to talk about how grateful I am to have shared professional space with you. Um, La La land was the first time I think that we worked together also Hosiers Work Song choreographed by Jillian Myers. And don’t, you dare forget that Kinzo short film   

I will never forget  

Choreographed by Megan Lawson and looks were so on point on point 100%, be sharing some photos. Um, but that’s absolutely the tip of the iceberg. In terms of your work, you mentioned you toured for pop stars, including Madonna. Um, you are in a few of my favorite movie musical dance scenes, 500 days of summer, which I also watched recently American beauty. 

Oh My God. Oh my god. 

So all that to say you have a career that I think anyone, but especially my listeners would envy. And this is a podcast about creative careers. So will you, um, start us off or continuous us off, I should say by sharing some of maybe the guiding principles that have helped you make your moves, the, the, the ideas, the lessons that have helped you navigate your career.  

So I find that I found that in my career, the thing that I knew that was really important to me is that I wanted, well, one I wanted to work, right. And in the beginning it was really challenging for me to work. It was very challenging because, um, I can only assume it was, um, how I looked and I don’t, I don’t think that the industry was fully receiving people of color of, of my ethnicity and the, our stories weren’t being told. So we weren’t part of the narrative. And, and even though, uh, dance jobs can be diverse. I was like the most ethnic and maybe a little too exotic. So there was a long period of time where, when I came to LA and started auditioning that I found challenged, I was very challenged in working. And, um, one of the first things that I realized was I was defining my success on work. And that was the first thing that I realized. I was like, oh, this is, this is a little bit a recipe for suffering and disaster. So I, um, after having a moment where I like quit and moved to India and gave everything up, um, to, uh, do social work and give back because I was like, wow, this job, this career path is so it’s all about the self. And I’m like, I can’t do that. I have to, I have to, I have to do something outside of myself and like, let go of all of, all of these things that were like causing me to one, not like the craft that I had trained my whole life doing because the business aspect was getting in the way the not working part. And, um, so I like totally let it go. I gave it up. And, um, in that process, that whole journey, I realized that I needed to define my own own, like my own definitions of success had to make my own definitions of success. So to me, that meant that I am a performer. I am all the things that I am if I’m doing that thing. So it doesn’t matter if I’m working and making money doing it. I can work at a coffee shop. That’s fine. As long as I am in class every day, working on the craft, loving this thing that I love so much to do. And so that was a first thing that I did. And when I let it go and went back to the basics, I think that’s when, um, things really shifted around me too. And I think that also was, um, something showed up was timing that as much as you can, like really work towards something. And I am a hard worker, I really believe in being a hard worker. There’s a level of professionalism that I really believe in and hard being hardworking is one that like, um, I really abide by, but that can get exhausting sometimes. And then you can question like doing all this hard work and like nothing’s coming out of it. And like, what I found is the work is never lost. There’s just this really magical thing called timing that like lines up and you don’t have control over that. And so there’s like, that doesn’t mean you don’t work hard. You still put in the hard work, but you let it go and you allow for the timing to happen, which is what happened. As soon as I define my success, I changed my, my outlook. It happened to be, I didn’t do this, but the world was also shifting in a way and it all kind of lined up. And then I started working like suddenly, like Madonna was like one of the first people who like hired me. I mean, there were others who hired me before that, but big job because of my ethnicity. And like, it was this whole, like this interesting thing where I’ve been faced with my ethnicity being, uh, helping me and also hurting me and finding who I am and all of that. Um, another really, really big thing for me has always been showing up and I think showing up has spread out. And what that means, this is the long range as far as like what showing up means. But in the beginning showing up was like, I’m going to go to every audition. Like I don’t care if they even want someone like me, I’m just going to show up. I’m going to say yes to all my friends. I’m going to do say yes to all the projects I’m going to say, yeah, I’m going to show up and to show up to class, I’m just going to show up. Really good at showing up and then fine tuning it to now where I’m on another side of my career and showing up, it’s still showing up as one of my like principles, because now, even though I’m not having to show up so extremely in that way, because I can now I have thankfully, um, more opportunities coming to me. I can make choices. You know, I’m more in the control control seat aspect. Um, showing up now looks like for me, that representation matters. And so I have to show up because, um, people need to see people like me, people need to hear my stories. And so it’s just interesting how the showing up is still there, for me, it just, isn’t a different way.  

This is a beautiful kind of peek into a long timeline of somebody who’s found. One thing that, which is showing up and even while the world changes, the showing up is never the wrong thing to do. The showing up is the right thing to do. And the way the world shows up will change. But the fact that you show up does not. Um, I think that that’s a lovely takeaway. Um, I, I want to talk a little bit about how you show up. I think the showing up on its own can get you very, very far, but the how you show up also is extremely important. Um, I’ll approach this subject through the lens of style, um, personal style, dance style, style of communicating, um, style in humor, like your, the things that make you laugh, the way you share your laugh, the way you, uh, not only curate the vintage closing in the shop of your backyard, but you curate the experience when you’re around people, by the topics of conversation. When my husband and I started dating and he started spending more time with dancers, he’s a non dancer. Um, he, he noticed very early on and he tried to ask in a very gentle way. Did you notice that dancers almost exclusively talk about other dancers? Most of the time, the subject matter is people. And that makes sense to me because people are our material. We are the, you know, the medium that we work in is, is bodies in space and time. Um, but I noticed when you and I started like socializing that very rarely were we talking about people, we talked about our experience of the world, our feelings, emotional arcs, things that we’re interested in, not people that we’re interested in and ever, you know, ever since our, since the beginning of our friendship, when I look back at conversations with you, I can’t name one where we were like talking about the people. So I think that you’re, I think that your style, and this is again, I’m going to, I promise I’m going to make a point. I think that your style is equally human. Like, I can tell that you’re interested in humanity, very human things, but also you must know this, you are a magical being, you are whimsical. And like etherial and this kind of magical thing. So what I notice about the opening land of the opening land of la la scene, the opening scene of La La Land is that I think you are the center circle of the Venn diagram that is natural and magical. Like, if you want whimsical realism, you get Reshma. If you want somebody who is like, yeah, natural and whimsical in equal parts, I think you do that very well. Um, is that how you would explain yourself? Is that how you would explain your style?  

So, um, well first I just want you to know that there is a, post-it literally on my table that says you are a magical creature. 

That tracks. Yeah.  

It says in quotes your mind just gets in the way and  

Human mind.  

I wrote that down because someone told me that and I, I didn’t believe them. I’m like, I’m not a magical creature. She’s like, you’re, I love that. You’re telling me this right now. I had to write it down on a post-it note. And sh and that person told me your mind just gets in the way, that’s it? Like, if you move your mind, you will see that you are a magical creature anyway. Sorry. You know? Okay.  

I’ll take that. That brings up. That brings up a secondary question, which is how do you move your mind? What does that look like for you?  

You know what, I’m struggling with that  

Struggling with finding out, Yeah.  

No, moving the mind. It’s like, I’m the muscle. And so it’s, uh, that’s why the post-it’s here. Because someone told me that my mind is getting in the way and I don’t disagree. And I think it’s a muscle that I have to remind myself, remind myself. Right. I’m a magical creature

Thats cute. I see what you did there. Yeah.  Okay. So is, is, okay. Back to the original question. Now, the style in which you dance, or would you explain it? 

Um, you really explained it so nicely. Um, I definitely feel like it’s grounded in it’s grounded in reality, but there is a level of, um, lightness to it at the same time. And I feel like my, I think that was the style that I really like is grounded in humanity, but also is telling a story. So like there’s intention. And that is actually what moves me is when I watch is what I, what I like is what I want to, uh, emulate. Right. And I’ve seen many performers, dancers and actors, we all have, and there are incredible technicians out there who are, to me are like Olympic athletes or, you know, super heroes. Um, and then there are performers who like move you, right. And they move you not with their head, like down, like get their leg, kicking their head, or the technicality like that. That is like I said, Olympic athlete, athlete move, moving me. But someone who moves my emotions, like moving my emotions versus moving me into awe, right. A superhero will move me into off, but like a performer that moves me to my emotion and feel something and connect is the kind of performer I and style I want. And so I always try to remind myself of that when I’m moving. That there what’s the intention, what is, who am I in this? Like? And so it is really grounded in humanity because I want to relate and I want to connect. And I want people to feel connected and that they’re not alone or all the things I want to be that connector, you know? And I think that all kind of came from when I was younger, my sister told me I was really intimidating and it hurt my feelings.  

And so it became your life’s work to be 

Really creepy. 

The most connective approachable.  

Yes. And that’s exactly the turning point. I never, I never forgot that she was like, oh, the reason why boys don’t talk to you or like, you know, it’s, or just, you know, people are just really intimidated by you. And I immediately felt frustrated by that because I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just being myself and like, what am I doing that’s intimidating. Like, I don’t want to push anyone away. And in that moment I was so young. Like, it, it led the trajectory of my personality because I, that is when the Muppet was born,  

Really? 

That is when Muppet Reshma was born. And I was like, okay, I still want to be like an authentic, um, version of myself, but I want to be like an approachable version of myself. And so I, you know, kind of turned myself into a Muppet because I think Muppets are adorable and I love Muppets and it just happened naturally. They didn’t think about it and like, be like, I’m going to be a Muppet. I just, I naturally just like became a Muppet,  

Explain, explain your muppet self is, you know,  

Um, ex I mean, I think I was always expressive, but I just mean like, um, open and like, and, and loving and cute. And yeah,  

You’re, you’re hugging the air. She’s hugging the air times since we started talking about the Muppets 

A Muppet. I don’t think a muppet is intimidating at all right? 

Wow. I mean, I don’t think they are. Yeah maybe the cookie monster, maybe only because only because they might steal my cookies, Oscar, the grouch is not the most friendly look, very cuddly. 

You know where I’m going with it. 

So I think it’s very interesting how this is a great example of how the stories that we believe about ourselves really shape our lives. And that was such a huge, impactful moment for you. Yeah. Okay. So your sister said, you’re intimidating. You created a Muppet version of yourself who champions love. Embraces otherness and humanness and all the people, so that never, could you be feeling that you are excluding anyone, um, that yeah. When I watch you dance, it does feel very inviting and inclusive. I think, you know, when you talk about the people who really move you to me, when I watch a performer that makes me want to do what they’re doing versus makes me want to sit down and behold where they are doing that is like, that’s the mark of a magician to me of a magical performance. 

I agree. I agree. That is exactly right. Because I will watch a ballerina. Right. And I will be awestruck, but I will want to stay in my seat and watch them. Right,  

Right, right. Yes. Want to applaud you with my jaw on the floor, but yes.  

Yeah. Jaw on the floor, mad respect, like I said, Olympic athlete, superhero person, but I don’t want to jump on the stage and do that. But yeah. People who do that to me, where I’m like, I want to be in that, I want to do that. I want to be in that next show. I want to work with that person. I want to, that is, that is usually someone who was moving me from a different place than the technicalities and, you know, steps and, um, skill, high skill level. It’s something beyond that. It’s subtle. Sometimes, sometimes you don’t even, it’s not like this. It’s not theatrical you know, it’s something super subtle.  

Yeah. Let’s talk about subtlety. Something that I’ve noticed lacking in, uh, the upcoming generation, the art of subtlety and sometimes, I mean, with face sometimes, I mean, with hands or wrists, sometimes, I mean, with the whole body, there can be a very subtle shift that manifests in the entire body that is very subtle. Um, and I’ve been working lately on several projects that call for real people dancing or real person range of motion dancing or real people, slightly elevated to be dancing. And it’s difficult for a lot of the younger generation to achieve. Very difficult. I think the most readily accessible example, I will call back La La Land you in the car. In the opening scene, you have very specific choreography to unbuckle your seatbelt. You have very specific choreography with the sunglasses. There are counts. You must be a professional dancer, but you must not dance those things or before the movie even starts, we will have been taking, taken out. You establish the tone of the film with that subtlety. How did you learn how to do that? And do you have any tips for people to do that? I think it, if I could, it would be stopped taking dance class immediately and go outside and watch people in the world or take an acting class and find out how much you actually dance all the time to portray a normal person who has moved to be dancing is a completely different skillset than to be a performing dancer.  

Yeah. It is a skill set that is being asked for more and more and has been for the last, like, I don’t know, 10 years, I feel like I’ve been seeing that a lot, but it’s interesting because like, what you said was you have to be a dancer to do that job. People can’t not, they, they want normal, real people, but normal will, people cannot hit a mark I mean, no offense. I mean, maybe they can, but with the training, we are trained to hit marks, consistency, um, you know, counts and all of those things mattered. I mean, they matter, and time is money. And when you’re on set and you have to hit the mark and everybody else is allowed to make mistakes, but except for you as the performer, everyone else camera can make mistakes and everyone’s okay, everyone, but the dancer or the actor needs to kill it in every take. Like they have to hit their mark. And, you know, depending on, you know, you want to be the last reason why they need to do the take again, you know, and, um, you have to be the consistent one.  

Do you attribute your strength in subtlety to being acting training and what acting training do you actually have? I’m actually, I have a gap in my knowledge of you in this area. I know you were an Edge scholarship kid, but what supplemental training do you have? 

Um, so I actually, what’s really interesting is I took Theater Arts in college and I saw it. There was a moment in time where I really was considering acting at the beginning and I took an acting course in college and it was really traumatizing. And I thought, oh, wait, this feels really toxic. I don’t know if acting is for me, actually, this is what acting is. I don’t want to do this. I’m very protective of my, like health mentally and physically, um, which is why as a dancer, longevity was really important to me. And I was like, not trying to like, you know, do things that I felt would harm my body. You know, it was very smart about like, okay, I’m going to be, um, know how to look like I am full out like full out bleading on the dance floor, but also holding a space or an energy for my body to know when, to really disperse the energy and when to bring it in that I think comes with time and experience learning when you really need to bring it and kill it and when you really just killing yourself and that just only harms you and then your longevity of your career and is not so long because now your knees are shot and no one else cares about your body except for you. And you have to be the advocate for your body. I don’t care about what anybody says, but if I don’t want to jump on the trampoline in heels, I’m not jumping on the trampoline in heels, someone else wants to figure that out, you know, skeleton crew that out, go for it. But to go back to the, to the, the subtleties of being an, being a person who is asked to be pedestrian, that scene was definitely like riding the line of being a performer and a human at the same time. And they really wanted the human aspect. And what I do is take, I literally have to take the dancer out of me It’s like, I remove that identity out of me, um, and just focus on who I am in all of it. And so I know that sounds simpler than it is because it’s not that simple. It is really hard for dancers, right? How, how do dancers take the dancer out of them? Well, for a long time, I only identified as a dancer. And so therefore everything I do the way I sit, the way I walk, the way I dress a dancer, but I’m like, okay, no, let me expand my identity a little bit more. Who else am I, what else am I, I, I, I’m not just a dancer. I had to expand my identity. And so by doing that internal work, it kind of started to move on the outside of me. When I started to find out other parts of me, I was able to take it out of my body. It was like an energetic thing. And so the other identity started to take over. So I don’t, I don’t walk and dress and do anything that, that says screams. If I’m walking down the street, she’s a dancer, right. But once I start to dance, it’s like a magic trick. It’s like, and I can check this out. You didn’t see that coming. You know what I mean? And so feels like a fun, like surprise instead of like someone being able to like, know that I am a dancer. And so that started to happen around the time when I One was starting to get more work that was asking for that. And I wanted to be an actor more, also start acting all those things kind of started happening at the same time. And, um, yeah, I don’t know if that really answers the question. As far as acting training, I found an acting method called the Barrow group that teaches out of New York, but because of the pandemic, it was all on zoom. And so the silver lining of being during quarantine, they started teaching online and I was able to start taking those courses. Um, I was, I’ve been training, um, the Barrow Group method, which is basically like a way that empowers the actor with tools to, um, be their most authentic self in these moments. And so it’s more about script analysis than it is about character analysis, because this has us in these situations. Right. And we all can relate to any of these situations that we’re given in scripts. I really love being empowered with the tools. Yeah. And it’s not about the teacher or the teaching or anything like that. It’s all about the tools. They’re like, literally give you a tool belt tool belt, and then you can pull from it what you need in the moment.  

Don’t tell me, they literally gave me a tool belt because I will sign up. I love a utility. I have a utility vest that I wear when I clean my house. It’s actually like a tactical vest. It was a gift from my brother-in-law it says Chef. And it’s meant to be a joke, the chef 

You don’t get a real tool belt. Yeah, I wish that’d be amazing.  

It like, it’s powerful enough to think of it as such.  

Yes. And, and what I also loved about it is that it’s so clean. Like it’s so squeaky clean this method. There is no, like, there’s nothing that feels unhealthy about it. Like I go back to me being like, I’m very protective of my health. Um, yeah. It, it just, it’s never about what’s good and what’s bad. What we liked, what we didn’t like. It’s, what’s different. That’s what we’re talking about. Do to do the same scene twice. And let’s talk about what’s different. Not what’s good. What’s bad. 

I love, I love what’s different versus what’s right. Or what’s wrong. It leaves so much more room 

Because Art is..  So like everyone has their own opinion about some people 

Its so subjective in every single way. And so perhaps the ways in which we learn it are as well, but tools that help things to be clean in a world that is, that can get very muddied with all the different techniques and rights and wrongs and do’s and don’ts and absolutes really nice to have something that works. My favorite acting teacher in LA, his name is Gary Imhoff I shout him out all the time, says that technique is whatever works. I love that. I love that. So many different things that work. Um, I wanna circle back really quick, something that you said, um, rang so true when you talk about being a magician. I remember having learned in my, in my stint as a magician’s assistant, uh, I was never a magician.

I would love to be a magician’s assistant. 

You could see it. I did. I assisted Wade Robson on Chris Angel’s believe show so I was around magic and very much loved the Illusionist and the Prestige. Do you remember those films? I think they both came out the same year. Anyways. I, you probably know where this is going, but there are three parts of a magic act, I’ll call it an act. Um, I, I hope I get this right. The pledge, the turn, and then the prestige. Um, and the pledge is where you show something normal. And I think that’s the part that dancers miss, and that’s the part you do so well, you present like in normal person, right. And then the pledge is, but watch me turn it into something else. And then the prestige usually is it goes back to normal or it shows up somewhere else. So again, the opening scene of La La Land and it’s like, not only do we all go back to normal, but you see all of LA something else, and then you find out it’s winter. Like there’s, there is a, there is a punchline at the end, but I think you’re right in that, by expanding our identities, we stand to gain more turn and more prestige than starting off as what we’re, what we’re saying. We’re going to turn ourselves into. 

Thats Right. 

So starting from this most human place somehow makes the dancing, the turn and the prestige 

That what makes it more magical and also more connecting to others because then they see themselves in you. And then they’re like, oh, I connect with that. I relate to that. And then also, I don’t know, there’s a level of believability that they could also be that, you know, or do that, you know, which is great.  

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We want people to believe in can-do versus sit and watch me do. Yeah. Um, we, by we, I mean, you and I, I think we relate on that. I don’t, I don’t mean to speak for the entire collective of dancers in the world, but it’s something, uh, I feel kindred with you on that. Okay. Let me be very real. This is the mark of a master because when you’re watching La La land, that can look really simple. Real girl, real car, real sunglasses, real battement. But let me tell you something, those aren’t real cars. Those are prop cars reinforced with two by fours. Those aren’t your sunglasses. That’s not your dress. There’s a massive camera, three inches from your face. It can be hard to remove the dancer and just be a human. When all of the visual stimuli, the audible stimuli are telling you that you’re a freaking dancer.  

And let me tell you like, um, that yeah, the, the why I love being a dancer first always is because there are things that being a dancer trained me to be that will advance me in all aspects of my life that have nothing to do with dance. That benefit me and I’m will forever be grateful to being a dancer because it is the ultimate super hero power. And, um, one of those things as being like a major multitasker in the moment, and that, by the way that car, the door was jammed, the seatbelt was jammed. I had to like figure out I was having voices and like three, three different voices telling me different things 

Where you wearing ear wigs or no?

I had like, uh, I had, um, like I had something in my, I think, sorry. No, there was like a mic in the car, but also, I mean, they ended up using different, um, audio, but they had mic and car and then I had a musical director, a director, and the choreographer telling me three different things.  And then, um, I had to, yeah, the battement, I had to be very specific angle. It could have had to be at a very specific height, not to like, it was like a very specific angle. I had to hit that mark exactly with my hands. Exactly. He wanted it very specific. And then my, the glasses, yes, didn’t totally fit. And then I had to throw them into the window without looking at the window with the window open and they have to land in a certain place and hit the mark and then remember all the lines and then also find my human in all of it. There was a lot.   

And then, and then you had to have pulled that off and then every person down the line since then had to also know that many things y’all please go watch. It’s just truly, I cried watching it this morning because I remembered all of those things and I remembered making it to the end, pull the door and hearing somebody’s door closed slightly late and just shrinking knowing that we would ultimately be doing it one more time. 

That Also is like, another thing I love about dancers is that, like, there are moments where we take turns where it’s like, it’s such a group effort. It is such a group effort. And then there are moments where you have to also shine whether or not you want to, you have to shine and knowing like when you have to shine and when you have to blend, right. And when you have to work hard together, you know what I mean? 

What is your metric for achieving that? How do you do that?  

Um, I mean, I take it off of the, the director usually. Yeah. I feel like I can tell by the story that’s being told, like what’s important because the story overall is more important than anything else. And so the story that’s being told is the most important. It’s not me. It’s not us. It’s not anything. And then how do I make that story come to light? Like how do I participate in making that the most important thing? So in that moment, if it means I have to shine, then I have to turn. I have to, even if I’m uncomfortable or I don’t feel like I deserve it or whatever. And then there are moments where I’m like, oh, this is where I have to, we have to be unison. Like we cannot mess up. We have to close the door at the same time. Don’t mess it up no matter what you do. And it’s no, it’s everybody’s fault. We all go down one for all, for one, and like being humble and hardworking enough to blend too, you know? And like be together, dancers are the best. 

It’s so much. Yeah. It’s so much. I love dance. I love being a dancer and I love dancers. Okay. Let’s shift gears. I would love to talk about silence. Um, last week’s episode on the podcast, I talked about the things that I learned in my, uh, 21 days of silence. There were two exceptions. I’ll be real. I was on my patio one day in a big June, June bug flew at my face. And I swatted. And this is maybe five days after my surgery, swatted my hand. And I said, no, thank you with this tiny, tiny little foreign voice. And I was so upset that this June bug provoked, oh, not like, ah, but three actual, fully formed words. No, thank you. Anyways, outside of that, I did well with silence. Um, but I want the listeners to know before I had my surgery, I called Reshma because I know that each year you participate in a silent retreat. Could you tell us a little bit about what you do and what, what it entails?  

So I I’ve been for the last like 10 plus years have been studying meditation from a Himalayan Monk. And, um, it’s a Vedic, indigenous oral tradition. Sanskrit, All of it is like comes from the source. And every year we find a place in nature. You know, whether it’s like in the mountains or another like retreat center, because there’s no like property that we, that the nonprofit that this is all kind of run through has, and every year for 10 days, sometimes a little bit more, sometimes a little bit less. Um, we, we review our practice and then learn more. If we are at a level where we can learn more. And in that, in those 10 days, part of the retreat experience is that you’re in complete silence. And the reason why is so that the teachings can go in deeper and deeper in silence, and it really works. And, um,  I remember, um, when I, when I say silence, I mean, like, there’s no phone, there’s no books. There’s no music. There’s no eye contact, 

No communication. 

No communication, because communication is not silence. So no eye contact, you know, no speaking, no body language as a dancer, like not being able to be like, are you going in the bathroom? Like pointing that’s communication, no, nothing. So completely going in going totally inside. And while you are doing that, you’re also in class. I mean, the teacher, the monk who is teaching he’s speaking, but we’re not speaking if we have a burning question and it better be a burning question, just kidding. You know, maybe you can write it down on a piece of paper. You can add, you can give, you know, but these are like, you don’t, you know, when we’re talking about Himalayan Monk, you better have burning questions because questions just lead to more questions. Dana, let me tell you, I’ve learned that hardcore. 

Actually, that was my biggest misconception about my 21 day journey is that I would have an answer at the end. I was like, oh, this will be great. I’ll know. So much all come out as this, you know, actualized person with a plan, um, with answers and you, yeah. You said it. Questions begets questions.  

Yeah. And what’s beautiful is the more you meditate, you learn discernment. And then the discernment allows you to answer your own questions. And so this is a long process. Meditation doesn’t happen overnight. This is like, like lifetimes. Like I’m not going to master this. I suck at it. Kay. To be honest, like I’ve been doing it for years and I’m not trying to put a judgment on it. So I take that back. There’s no sucking at anything. It’s just, again, here I showing up, it’s coming back again with meditation, because there’s so much for me, it’s so subtle. And with my craft, it’s not subtle. Right. Except for when we talk about the dance acting like taking the dancer out, those types of things, scale  

The scale of perceptible performance versus like the work, the work is not subtle. You are working so hard. 

Right. And in meditation, it’s all about subtlety. You could feel a little bit like nothing’s happening. Right. Cause it’s so subtle. And, um, I had to really work hard on again, defining my success. Right. I, these themes keep showing up. It’s not about the successful meditation that day. It’s about, there’s no such thing anyways. It’s never going to be, I mean, the goal is for it. You to consistently find it every day. Right. But for me, it’s always about showing up. So if I showed, I show up every day and I sit down. Now, if I’m sitting for five minutes or an hour, that is, I can only show up and then see what happens. And I’m not gonna put a judgment on it, but I’m gonna always show up for myself. Because for me, meditation was like me marrying myself. It was like, my first marriage is like, I, why am I such a bad wife to myself? I don’t show up for myself. I don’t like, I can’t even sit with me myself for like two seconds. Like what kind of, what the, what kind of partner, what kind of partner my, to me. And so meditation became my first marriage to me being a good wife to myself. And so I show up every day, no judgment what happens. Happens.  

Thank you. Um, I remember when first I came to you, I was expecting to leave with tips, like how to make it easy, how to get the most out of it. And you said, Ooh, how does one prepare someone for a life without speaking, when that person loves to be speaking? And I was like, yep, I’m asking you to do something hard. And I didn’t even realize the depth of the retreat that you go on. It Inspired me. Again, I was ex I was expecting, you know, a plan like meditate once in the morning, eat this for breakfast journal this many pages, read this book. Um, go on a walk that’s this long. I really had this urge to calendar and schedule my days. And your, uh, our conversation really inspired me to take it one degree further to disengage from more, to engage more with myself. So I stopped social media. I only checked my email twice a day. I deliberately did not try to communicate. Um, my mom was going to come be with me post operation, and I love her more than anything in the world and actually asked her, I think it would be better if you don’t. I will try to communicate with you and the thought of trying to talk for 21 days versus allowing silence for 21 days. And that was a no-brainer. I was like, Hmm. I would like to allow this to happen. And I am glad that I did. I am very curious. And if you send me some information about your retreat or your type of retreat, um, oh 100% seek that out during a non post operation time of my life and maybe listeners would too. Um, but one of the things I wanted to ask you a little bit more about that you mentioned, uh, that day that we talked, uh, okay. So two things from that conversation that I wanted to bring up and allow you to share or expound on or not. Um, you said that when you can’t talk to anybody, you get louder to yourself. I definitely experienced that. I would encourage all of the artists listening to engage in vocal rest, or a vow of silence. If you are feeling out of touch with your voice, your values, your taste, uh, your sense of direction, it really gets turned up when you turn other things down. So we’d love for you to talk more about that if you want to, but also you mentioned something called the law of nature. This, that no itch will last forever. If you find yourself sitting in meditation and something’s bothering you and you really want to tend to it, if you don’t, it will go away. But if you do, you’ve broken the, your, your, uh, what is it that’s been broken. Watch me try to explain this thing. I know nothing about. Could you talk about the law of nature?  

Um, you know, it’s that thing that like this too shall pass and like sitting, I mean, there are, there are meditations that are training you to literally burn burn, um, and sitting in your, sitting in your pain and watching it. And I think even this morning, I was just talking to Miles about how, like, I’m understanding my meditation more and more and how it’s like reflecting life and like, with what’s happening on, on the outside in the world and what’s happening inside of me. And like that idea of just being like a witness and like witnessing and it being a separate thing. And, um, knowing like for me, I just am like, there will always be something if it’s not that my leg hurts or that like, oh, I have to like, oh, write that email or, you know, whatever else is distracting me physically, or emotionally, there will always be something.  And so if there will always be something I can’t stop that, but what I can do is like right now, take a second to just not worry about that and just be the, be the witness of like, okay, my, my leg is burning, but it will pass. And I will, it won’t, they won’t hurt in like two seconds. Just watch, just watch the pain. It sounds really, it’s not easy at all. I’m I know what I’m saying. Feels like, I mean, it’s not easy, but you can do it. It takes practice. Like it’s, like I said, like meditation is so hard, but it’s also not hard. It’s literally just a muscle that you just keep showing up to exercise, um, and turning almost disengaging and turning off the exercise of like taking things away and like, and going in, and, and as far as the, um, as far as the, you mentioned the first thing, which was yes, when you get quiet and you go into silence, your voice gets louder inside and that’s for better and worse. And so the things that are coming up that are loud can be things that like, you’ve like put aside and you don’t want to look at anymore, or also things that are like screaming the truth of you, like what you said, like, if you are lost or you need direction or anything like that, going silence means both of those things are going to come. Like all the stuff that you maybe have been avoiding, but also the things that you are looking and searching for, but all of those things are the truth. And so if you’re trying to find the truth, yes. Some of the truth is ugly and hard. And so you have to be prepared to face it, but then the reward is, you’re also getting things that you wanted, which is a direction and knowing who you truly are. And so they both have 

And being a partner to yourself.  

Yeah, exactly. And, um, you know, it’s totally, absolutely to me worth it to, to, to, uh, to deal with the loudness. And I think that’s also maybe sort of what I think you mentioned at the top of this, what you’re experiencing coming out of your silence, that like, you’re, you have to choose, there’s a level of choice and control over, like how much you want to exercise your voice. And that, to me feels like how I feel when I come out of silence that like, I don’t want to speak unless it’s value adding, like, I’m, there’s a lot of noise. There’s a lot of noise out there. There’s so much noise. And so let me just speak with what adds value. That’s it value adding

This is you curating the space. Yeah. Deciding editing first. Um, my husband also taught me he more or less put me through art school and introduced me to the notion of gesture, like gesture, gesture, drawing, but also gestures like in a painting, a stroke, a splatter, and there being no neutral gestures. And I think the same is true in dance, or at least I try to create from that place. It’s intense. Like when you think about the function of a preparation before a pirouette what does it contribute other than a foundation for a pirouette, is there a way to have, you know, something that’s not simply there to serve something else, but something that’s contributing, not distracting. And, uh, I, I’m noticing now more as I’m in voice therapy, which y’all, it’s been a journey, um, being, becoming more mindful of my pace, my breath, how I’m speaking, um, and what it’s supported with, uh, these are all things that I’ve been thinking so much more about now, thanks to this event, this life event of mine. Um, but I was actually shocked at how quickly I went back to talking a lot. I, when I was silent, I was like, oh, I love this. I, by the end of it, I was like, I could do this. I enjoy you  

You fall in love with it

Yes. I loved it. But as soon as I was around people again, um,  

It just so easily go back to it. Um, so when you’re in, you want to like, when you’re in it, you want to be there forever because you know that when you come out of it, it’s going to be like so fast,  

It moves fast, but there are things we can do to slow down, even when other things are moving quickly. I simply, for me, it’s simply taking breaths. Even if the sentence isn’t complete. Um, I was in back at a few past episodes and I’ll probably listen to this one too, and be like, breathe already, take a breath. So it’s an active practice I’m showing up for it. Thank you for being inspiration in that. And in so many ways. Um, and with that, for the voice, I probably should wrap it up and, um, contribute in other nonverbal ways for the rest of the day. But thank you so much for sharing your insights, your wisdom, your magic tricks. And Reshma where can people find more you, if they’re in LA, could they find the shop? How, how do we get more of you?  

Hey, um, well, I have a website which is basically my name.com. I have Instagram was basically as my name with the handlebar and I have the shop, which is called Inheritance Bombay to LA, which is exactly how you’d find me on Instagram. Um, it’s separate, it’s a separate account than my own personal account. And the shop is in Highland Park. And currently it is by appointment only, um, to keep everybody safe and feeling good. And it’s all about connection too. So, um, I like to connect if that is what you’re seeking and if you’re not seeking connection and you’re just seeking vintage, then I’m like, get it. It’s all curated to however you want it to be. But I am, I am totally open to all the things. So yeah, those are, that’s how you can find me.  

Incredible. Thank you for, thank you for being here. Thank you for being my first guest back.  

Dana. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to be here. The feeling is mutual.  

Thank you so much, my friend. And also, have I been saying your name wrong the entire time we’ve been friends?  

No, you have not. You have been saying it the way I’ve been saying it. This is a whole other podcast. Dana. I could go on and on. I actually had to think about how do I say my name  

Interesting, how does that make you feel  

Because I mean, it makes me feel all kinds of crazy. I basically even say my name wrong my whole life. And I, my name is Reshma and my mom actually calls me Resho. She says Resho. And um, growing up first generation American it’s spelled R E S H M a. So I’m like phonetically that’s Reshma. So I don’t know, mom, why are you saying my name wrong? I never said that to her, but I always was like, oh, she says it with an accent. That’s cute. Can we talk about how absolutely ridiculous that sounds like I was like, oh, she has an accent. I don’t. I say my name Reshma that’s how it is, right? Oh my God. When I realized Dana that I was like, appropriating my own name, you don’t even understand the identity crisis that I’ve been having around my name and how important, I mean, this is why I’m like, this is a whole other podcast because like it’s a word, syllables sound vibration. It is the name that everything has reasoned for. It is its existence. And Reshma is actually the way that it’s technically supposed to be said, but because I’ve always said, Reshma not thinking like, oh, I’m not, I wasn’t like it. Wasn’t coming from a place of embarrassment about my culture or my heritage. It was just, that’s just how you would say that in a R E sh- ma, like it was coming from that place. And then I don’t know why I had a disconnect with the way my culture and my family were saying my name. I just, I, maybe I chose. I also, after a certain point, I was like, I just, the way it like the way it sounded, it sounded like me and everyone called me Reshma and then it like kept reflecting back to me and it felt like me. And then when I had the moment where I was like, no, I’m the asshole in this situation. And now I have to choose, do I choose the name that is correct? Appropriate, like the appropriate pronunciation from my heritage and the way it’s supposed to be said, or do I choose the name that they both hit me in a different place in my heart, but they both are my name. Like Reshma is still, like, I identify as Reshma is like, what feels like also another part of my identity, like completely like a familial, like, like different place. And then Reshma is like my identity and like who I am in the world. And so this whole thing has been causing me all kinds of chaos and I’m like, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. And so I’ve just kind of been like going with the flow with it and like kind of slowly introducing it. And what happened is the other day I did it like a year ago on Instagram. I was like, it’s Reshma I fit it on like an Insta story. And I don’t even know how many DMs I got. Like, I’m sorry, what your name is? Reshma Like, I tried to be subtle about it, but it’s so not subtle that people heard it. They were like, your name’s Reshma I was like, oh my God, it’s not something I can just sort of try and like, introduce it into the world without an explanation.  There needs to be an explanation.  Cause it sounds like a totally new name. 

We could have a party, a re-introduction. 

So I don’t know Dana, I’m trying to figure it out, but I know I have the right to choose. So I’m like, I can choose, like I even asked my mom I’m like, do you like, what should I she’s like, do you bill, like whatever you want to do, like a beautiful thing. And I’m like, okay, well I’ll just like, I’ll just choose. 

There you go. You found the third option. You don’t have to be one or the other. You are actually both. Totally both. 

Well, my friend, what do you think? I think we will certainly be following up with Reshma in the very near future. What a gym? What a gift? What a rock star. I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did. And I really do hope you go watch that opening scene from La La Land, actually watch the entire movie, but if you’re really up for a challenge, maybe go try to recreate Reshma’s performance from that opening scene. I think that you will find walking that line between natural and magical is much easier, said than done. Certainly much easier talked about than danced. So good luck with that. May the funk be with you? The subtle funk, the very funky funk. Go be gone. Get out there, keep it funky. And I will talk to you soon. Bye