Ep. #60 Clean Up, Read Up, Open Up with Terry Santiel and Co-host Ava Flav

Words That Move Me with Dana Wilson
Ep. #60 Clean Up, Read Up, Open Up with Terry Santiel and Co-host Ava Flav
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THIS is history right here; past, present, and future.  I am honored to be co-hosting this episode with my dear friend and long time (tour time) bookend, Ava Bernstine Mitchell (aka Ava Flav).  Ava is a journalist, world renowned dancer, choreographer and educator, podcast host and much more!  In this episode, Ava and I go down memory lane AND look to bright and wealthy futures with the one and only Terry Santiel.  We all met back in 2007 when Terry was playing percussion and Ava and I were dancing on JT’s Future Sex Love Show Tour!   This episode peeks behind the curtain of the recording and touring industries, and will leave you inspired AND in stitches.  So, get ready for giggles and some very teachable lessons about legendary hits, building your financial foundation,  and keeping it clean with Terry Santiel and Ava Bernstine.

Quick Links:

Ava Flav: https://www.instagram.com/avaflav1/

Terry’s email: terralzzzz@aol.com

The Dance Room Podcast with Ava & Heather: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dance-room/id1470544579

Bagpipe Daily video: https://www.instagram.com/p/malL3wxnAU/

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration you need, to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host master mover, Dana Wilson. And if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana: Ladies and gentlemen. Hello, Hello. My name is Dana and this 

Ava: Is Ava Flav here with you.  

Dana: Ava will be joining me as co-host on this episode and I could not be more thrilled. Um, I’m jazzed that you’re here and I’m really excited for this episode because today will be, we will be talking to our friend, Mr. Terry Santiel. 

Ava: Yes. 

I mean, we’ll let him do the speaking the introduce of himself, but, uh, we met Terry back in 2007 when we toured with JT on the future sex love show tour. Terry plays percussion and Terry is exceptional, and we’re going to get to that. But first, you know how we do on the podcast, and I think this is important, All my guests introduce themselves and maybe it’d be cool for you for you to do a little self intro real quick. 

Cool, cool. Well, my name is Ava Bernstein Mitchell. I am a dancer choreographer teacher worked with lots of artists, toured with many artists, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears. I am heavy in Dance advocacy. I am on the board at SAG AFTRA and on dancers Alliance and fighting a lot for dancers rights and what not and I just all around just loved dance.  

And you are also a podcast host, and I am borrowing you for this episode. Tell us a bit about your podcast.  

Oh, my podcasts called the dance room. It is a podcast that I co-host with Heather Morris and we basically talk about dance shows and have wonderful guests on there. But at the moment it is on a hiatus, but you can always go back and listen to these episodes. We have some great guests and go over some really cool stuff. So yeah, The Dance Room,  

Your library is good. I went on a, I did a road trip once I was doing a long drive and that’s just what I listened to top to bottom the whole thing the two of you together. Hi, Heather, love you. Okay. But first Ava, you know the deal we’re doing wins and I’m going to let you kick it off today. What are you celebrating today?  

It’s might sound not like a win to some people, but it’s a win because I’ve been teaching three-year-olds, which is a struggle. I’m not going to lie. Three-year-old is tough. I’m five and up and recently that class just got canceled and I’m so excited. It’s a win for me. So yes.  

And do you know what? I think that might be a win for them as well. You know, they have this time freed up now they can be yes.  

Now they can play with each other. That’s all they wanted to do. They want us to play with each other and I’m happy for that. You didn’t need to dance. 

Congratulations. Thank you. I’m glad that I’m glad that you’re winning in that way is it’s important. Cancellations are not always a loss. 

No, not always a loss. 

Okay, great. I love that. Um, this week I am celebrating that I’ve decided I can’t believe it took me so long to decide to do this, but I’ve decided to choose a donation organization to send all the proceeds from my podcast shop. So for the next 30 days, all proceeds from my Words that Move Me online store are going directly to Chloe and Maude Arnold, 

My sister, friends. Yay.

I, I love that too. And I, I love that. I love what they do. I love how they lead. Um, and I’m really thrilled to be supporting them. Okay. Um, now it’s your turn. What is going well in your world? 

Phenomenal. Congratulations. Maybe, maybe without any further ado we jump to, how do you feel about that? 

I think we shall let’s do it. 

Enjoy everybody. 

Dana: I think we’re doing it. I think this is it.  

Ava: Yes. Well hello Terry Santiel, yeah. 

Terry: Hey Ava. And now I’m saying hi, Dana.  

Dana: Hi Terry. Welcome to the podcast, my friend. This is amazing. I’m jazzed about this. The first thing we’ll ask you to do, unfortunately, because this is a challenge is to introduce yourself. What would you like us to know about you?  

Somebody who’s never met you? 

Terry: Well, my name is Terry Santiel. Terrell Santiel is my legal name and I’m born and raised in Los Angeles, California. Um, I went to school all over this city. I am, I guess I’m a rolling stone of Los Angeles. You know, where my mom and dad were when I was growing up, my mom and dad were separated. So I moved a lot. That’s why I sent him a rolling stone of Angeles. Cause I’ve lived everywhere from the Valley, to Compton to Watts, to South central and now I’m here near Hollywood. So anyway,  

Amazing. I love it here. That you’re, uh, a native Ava is as well.  

Yeah, I think I know that about Ava. Yes.  

Isn’t it odd that things that we’ve learned about each other and the things that we remember and the things that we, that we, don’t.  Ava and I were just talking the other day about how our memories are so selective. Like I remember the oddest things about being on tour and then full-blown chapters that are just, I have zero recollection.  

I do remember one thing about you on tour when you were watching the tour bus bus to carwash. 

That’s amazing.  

Yes! We washed the bus! Terry thank you for reminding me. And actually that is, is one of the things that I would like to talk about on this, but, but maybe we’ll get there oddly enough. I talk about car washes on the podcast a lot. Not because they’re interesting, but because I live across the street from one,

Literally across the street 

I hear it often. I don’t think, I don’t think we can hear it today. I’m in the booth as it were. Um, but, but let’s, uh, let’s go pre carwash for a second. Some people listening might not even know what we mean by that, but we’ll get there.  

Ava: I would love to know where your lover percussions came from. 

Well, that’s a very interesting question. My, um, family grew up basically playing percussion, my uncles, my cousins, my brothers, everybody. Sort of kind of played, but with me they sorta kinda like wouldn’t let me play. They told me, I didn’t know. You know? And then they set out to be a challenge for me to learn. And then I learned, and I got better than everybody. I hate to say that, but better. I got a little bit more skilled than the rest of them. And my career started from that point. But man, I can remember my uncle junior. He would like, we would play on the bottom of oatmeal boxes, the Quaker oatmeal boxes at like three years old, four years old, just didn’t know we were doing just, it was fun and it was noise cause they had to real drums. So yeah, it started at a very young age. I was like 13 though  

Okay. So it started young, but when did it take off, like when did you start getting paid to do this? How did that happen?  

Started getting paid at a really early age. I, um, well first, uh, before I guess I must’ve been 16 and my mother used to sign for me to be able to play in clubs, the local bands on the waiver. So we could play because they sold alcohol in these places and, you know, go in and play with some of the bands. And then I ended up getting my own, you know, being in a band that I was involved in. At the time the band was called Total concept Unlimited 

That’s a good name

TCU. 

I really loved that name.  Total concept, unlimited LLC incorporated unlimited.  

That’s a point. Maybe I’ll start LLC with that TLC total.  

Come on. Okay. So, so we get a tiny picture of the early days and then Rose Royce happened. So you’re one of the founding members of the group Rose Royce with that mega hit carwash, uh, which I will not sing because although I did do my vocal warmups today, the voice of the little subpar, there it is. Don’t let it stop please. Uh, that crack crack, crack, crack, Terry that’s you. And my question about that track is as you were writing that song, as you came up with that mega catchy super clap, did you know that that was going to be a hit, like as you were making it, did you know?  

No. When you know, when you’re doing these things, when they’re, when they’re happening and they’re in their infancy, you don’t know what’s going to happen with these songs. And that, by the way, that song was written by Norman Whitfield, if you guys Google Norman Whitfield, you’ll see his catalog is pretty extensive and like that. So anyway, but yeah, but those are my hands on that hand clap that you hear all the time. 

That is remarkable. I just think thats so cool

Let me say this about Rose Royce. Since we went there, Total Concept Unlimited became Rose Royce. We changed the name to Rose Royce.  

Oh see, now I’m conflicted because I like both names. Uh, and when did, what brought about the change?  

Well, we met Norman Whitfield, the producer, and we ended up getting a girl in the group and we decided to change the name to Rose Royce. So a lot of people got it mixed up with Rolls Royce, the car, right. It’s actually Rose Royce like the flower. 

Like the flower. So that’s an important distinction. Yes. So I did a little, a little digging and I know that you were one of the, uh, early incorporators of using electronic instruments. Like you would use an electronic drum pad. I would love to hear a little bit about the differences making music then versus making music now.  

Okay. Making music now. Well, let’s start with making music now. Making music now is a little easier with all of the computers and all of the easy ways of making music. Now you could play, say a shaker for four bars, and then you could copy it and paste it, make it go throughout the whole song and cut it and chop it back in the day we had to physically play all of the parts. Whether you said play as shaker as an example, whether you sit there and play shaker 10 times on a five minute song, you know, your wrist will be on fire because the weight it gets heavy, you know, and holding your arm in a certain position for so long and not trying to mess up a tempo or anything like that. And then a lot of times it wasn’t your fault that you had to do it, you know, as many times as you’re going to doing it because we recorded everything together with multiple people. So one person could make a mistake that starts the whole thing over. So that’s how that works out. Yeah. Even back when we did carwash, when we did carwash, there were, um, before we got it all the way, right. I think there were 47 tapes. So that song had to be played that many times with a whole band together. A whole group of people together from top to bottom. Yeah. Well, if we even got to the bottom, right, right.  

Top to Middle. Yeah. Wow. Okay. This is, that’s giving me flashbacks of, I think the same is true for dance in video, especially. That’s flashbacks to the opening scene of Lala land, which is this big ensemble highway moment. And it’s a oner and to get all the way through, without everybody messing up, like camera, props that yeah.  

So speaking a la la land, the percussionist that was on the back of the truck is my cousin. 

Get out of town! Yeah.  So much fun in that moment, we got Liz Imperio dancing in front of that truck. That’s so cool. The entertainment world is the size of a tiny acorn. At very least it could fit into the back of a truck. Um, okay. So that’s one of the key differences is like the duration or the actual recording process. Having to be a steady all the way through. I’m sure that damn near everything else has changed as well. But maybe this is the better question. What has stayed the same?  

What has stayed the same? 

Um, nothing.

My, my drum set stayed the same  

Because you’ve got it tuned in. You’ve got that.  

That set up is nice. 

Well, you know, the drums I used for my real recording sessions. I used the same drum set I use since they, the first drums I ever owned and the original Mahogany Congas, and they’re all everybody’s stuff. I mean, I played on a lot of records, but they’re from carwash back in the day, you know,  

Will you name drop a little bit for us. Yeah. 

Tell us you’ve, you’ve played on a lot of records, but don’t, don’t be shy. I mean some Motown classics, the Temptations, Smokey Robbinson.  

Yes. Yes. Actually the temptations were, those were temptations was the first group I’ve ever recorded with. And interesting about that story is the Temptations Runaway child, running wild song was the first song I learned how to play on congas, you know, like very young.  

And then, and then you found yourself working for them.  

Yeah. It was the first thing that I did professionally you recording wise. So did the 1990 album with the Temptations. Yeah, it was, it was amazing experience back then, but the same drums are used on like all of that stuff from Marvin Gaye to Smokie. Can you everybody’s yeah. Even recordings with Berry Gordy over there. I did a lot of Mo-Town stuff. It was amazing. I had a, I had a great time over at man.  

So funky that music. Oh, but you also, you, I don’t want to, um, pigeon hole you or, or pin you as being this old school guy. Um, we obviously know you from touring with JT, but you play for Janet Jackson, um, and, and, uh, a host of others. So your, your musical talents and sensibilities are not, I couldn’t put a date on them. 

You transcend generations 

So how, how is it that you do that?  

I just try to stay current and I don’t feel like I know everything or think that I know everything I’m always progressing and learning, you know? And I think that’s what keeps me current, you know? Um, now, like right now I’m like, uh, I’ve sorta kinda like figured out the whole trap thing and  

Yes, what is it? Please explain it to me.  

Well, what I’m trying to do now is a corporate rate, low am, percussion stuff to match the stuff that goes on within those rhythms and groups. That trap is all about, you know, it’s and the whole trap thing. It’s like, it’s fascinating to me because it’s all low end, and A lot of people can’t hear that frequency, but it moves them. You know what I mean? That’s what I mean about  

Figuring it out on a Sonic level, you’re figuring out the trends and how to do it and how to make complimenting things, right?  

Yeah. Yeah. Like I can do it. And I know how I’m just trying to figure out how to incorporate my instrument in it and make it like, make it crazy like I’m in that process now. How about that?  

Cool. I can’t wait to hear what comes out of it. I know  

This, this is the reason why you stand the test of time is because you, you keep current and you’re always learning, like you said, and that is fascinating to see and a good lesson to take away. Honestly,  

I agree absolutely 

The thing is too, is just to stay humble. That’s the, that’s the main thing. Stay humble and try to not, I guess, try not to feel like you’re more than you are. That’s the best, better way, uh, way of putting it. But then when I say that, there’s, I see a lot of people all the time on a lot of tours and throughout my whole career, they think they’re as important as the artist. And you’re not, you’re there to compliment the artists, you know what I mean? And do what you do. But I see a lot of people, you know, over the years just doing things that just in my mind make absolutely no sense at all, you know, with the life. Because when you go on through life, you’ve got to, you’ve got to set up your future, you know, and a lot of people don’t do that. They live for now. They want to go to all them clubs. They want to be a part of the, I call it the hype crowd. They want to be, you know, they’re not artists, they’re just a part of something, you know? So,  

You know, that’s, that’s a lovely segue. We had planned to talk about touring. I think one of the areas where musicians and dancers overlap almost in an identical type of way is an a tour scenario. A dancers’ experience of tour is very similar to a musician’s experience of tour. You’re away from your loved ones. You’re unnaturally like living, eating, sleeping, you know, breathing, working with your, you know, uh, cohorts colleagues. Um, and I think that’s really unnatural. And I think you do it very, very well. How many, how many tours have you been on Terry? Is that even a number you can count?  

You know, I’ve been torn since forever.  

Did Terry did Jesus’s Birthday Tour.  

I’ve been on several tours, but I’ve not been on a lot of tours because I will pick and choose who I like to work with. And a lot of them have worked for, you know, I’ve worked with them for a long period of time, You know? And you could take JT as an example, you know, I’ve been working with JT since 2002, it’s been 20 years. It doesn’t even seem like that long. And in the same, same thing, you know, with like Janet, I worked with her for at least, at least 10 years, you know, and Mary J Blige, I worked for her for a long time. I mean, you know, Barry White, I was part of the whole Love Unlimited Orchestra. And, you know, I worked in that for a long time. You know, I haven’t been on tour with a lot of different people. I’ve been on tour a long time with different people.  

Right. You can be on many tours with a few of the same people. Right. You mentioned, you mentioned staying out of the hype, um, is that one of the secrets to touring? Well, to like not combusting or going broke? I mean, trust me a tour is a great way to make money, but it’s also a great way to spend it. So what are the secrets

If you’re caught up in the hype? You know what I mean? I, um, I try to do my thing. I tried to study and learn a lot of different things and then I try to stay out of harm’s way. And what I mean by that is you could see people doing things that, you know, are going to get them fired. So I sorta kind of stay out of the way, you know, like, okay, I see that I know where that’s going to lead because I’ve seen it so many times I’ll move, I’ll move on. I’ll go another direction. So yeah,  

You learn from people’s mistakes, just as much as you can learn from their successes. I learned that on tour as well.  

And then what are you going to, I mean, I, I learned, I made when I was very young and we were talking once Lionel Richie and myself, and he was telling me one of his secrets to success is not to be, not to be too familiar with everybody, you know? And I sort of kind of live by that. And you guys know that too. Everybody knows me, but you don’t know a whole lot about me. You know what I mean? I just try not to stay too familiar because it, it sort of keeps you out of harm’s way. You know, people have a lot to say about you, then it could, it could go either way, it could go negative or positive. Right. We’ll just sorta kind of stay out of the way.  

Well, speaking of knowing about you, I remember on tour that you were a collector of Air Force Ones, and I wanted to know, do you still have a love for the Air Force One? And how many do you have?  

No, I used to do that and I used to, like I said, I was caught up. 

If there’s something to get caught up in, I’d say it could be worse. Yeah.  

Well, you know, it was like one of those six now look at it. I was like, Oh, that’s a waste of money. But there’s like this kid that lives down in San Diego and he sells and collects like sneakers. So I ended up giving him a bunch of that stuff just so he could make some money. You know, he’s a little entrepreneur, I think it’s like 12 or 13 years old. His name is Eric, you know, and love this. Like, go make some money because a lot of that stuff I was buying and collecting back then and Ava I’m never get rewarded ****. I know there was a thing. And I was like, Oh, I got all of this stuff. So I stopped minimalizing my life. You know what I mean? And just getting, I have no clutter in my house, you know what I mean? It’s just, if I don’t use it, it’s gone. If I don’t wear it in a year, it’s gone. I have no problem taking it to the shelter and giving it to somebody that’s going to use it. You know what I mean? I don’t throw anything like that in the trash. I’m not going to try to go on eBay and put the stuff on sale. You know what I mean?  

Terry, you are so patched in to the questions that I wanted to ask you today because I would love to talk to you about money. Um, I remember being on tour and you being the voice of reason so often, uh, like, you know, you’re, you’re being smart out here on the road, save your money. You knew I was, uh, I think Ava and I were both in the same situation. We got rid of our, um, apartments when we went on tour. So we had almost zero expenses and you encouraged us both buy a house, get yourself some investment properties. Um, you were really were a voice of financial reason to me at a very early age. And I would love for you to just shed a little wisdom on that. Um, because most of my listeners are young artists and I simply don’t believe that we need to be starving. I believe we can be thriving and I believe we can live under roofs that we own. Um, and I know you believe that too. You could you talk a little bit about, uh, your thoughts about money, how you manage it and how you’ve grown your wealth.  

I think that everybody should think, think for the future, you know what I mean? Where are you going to be in 10 years? Where do you want to be in 10 years and establish yourself. Uh, when I say establish yourself, I mean, set up your future, set up your foundation, which I believe is the most important thing, is where you live. You know what I mean? And if you could get yourself in a position where you could own something, rather than paying rent, you’re in a better position. You know, I’ve got, you know, I mean, I’ve, you know, but I’ve got, you know, different income properties, but I always encourage people who live under my roofs, you know, to buy something. I will not hold somebody to a lease that I know I can hold them to if I wanted to. If they’re like, wow, I found this out like, Oh, cool, I’ll let you go do your thing. I’m happy for you. You know? And how, you know, find somebody else to occupy that space because it is a business. And for me, when you’re doing something like that, even if you dove into something like I dove into, like with real estate, you have to take it very seriously and not look at it. And you have to look at it as a business, you know, get all kinds of equity and capital and money and taxes. A lot of things come along with the home ownership thing. So, but you need to set up your life and you need to build your future and you shouldn’t be playing around with it because people who played around with it found out how serious it was. They when this whole COVID hit it’s like, now you can’t work. Now you getting kicked out of your apartments, you know, and there’s all of these other things come into play as like, wow, what am I going to do for money? You know, what is it? Unemployment checks. And I can imagine it’s not a good feeling. You know what I mean? And it’s not a good thing. So I just think that we all have to be conscious of what we’re going to do with our lives going forward.  

This is, this is perfect. I want to, I want to ask a question. I’m sorry to interrupt. I think one of the notions that I myself, I had this thought and I’m sure a lot of my peers in similar situations thought, well, if I have to focus on a building, I won’t be able to focus on my craft. Or if I buy a, if, if I make my home, my business or this income property, my business it’ll take me away from the thing that I really love. And I love that you’re the person saying this because you are a living breathing example that that doesn’t have to be the case. I mean, surely could you get distracted? Absolutely. There’s enough. There’s enough enough, you know, uh, things of being a homeowner to distract you for a very long time, but you have been more working, more touring, more learning, more building than anybody I know. And you’re still doing all those other things on the sides. It’s possible to do both without losing focus on one or the other.  

You set your foundation. 

POP OUT:

Okay my friends, DW here popping out with a quickness, because we’re getting a little technical here with some financial jargon. Talking about residual payment structures and so on and so on. And it dawned on me, that we have never really gone deep on money on the podcast. So, I am deciding to dedicate 4 of the 5 Mondays in March to money, March. Were we will get into all things Dancer contracts, choreographer contracts, money mindset and the difference between math and drama. So buckle up and get ready for that, but in the mean time lets jump back in with Ava and Terry. 

**

But go ahead. What was your question?  

Yeah. Um, so Ava and I, and a lot of dancers in our, our field. It’s, it’s not uncommon to work on a two day shoot for a commercial. And the, the amount you make for those two days of work is not, not a ton of money, but the residual income you make from that point that’s, that’s, that’s starting to look, that’s a real number, right? So you’re you play a, you’re a session player as well. Am I calling that the right thing?  

Yes, it, yeah. And I try to write it. Yeah. Session Artist.  

And how does that look for you? Do you feel like that’s a better use of your time and talent?  

Let me tell you, let me tell you something. Like I said, I’ve run everything through the union and I do a lot of, and have done a lot of recording sessions like throughout the year. So this was just a story. I’ll just throw it out there. My neighbor down the street picks up my mail when I’m on the road, things that are important, she FedEx them to me. Like I said, as part of the business, you have FedEx numbers and all these things. So things that get to you the next day, you have to have these things set up. She told me once, if you’re like, dude, I have never seen anybody get as many checks as you in my life. 

That residual income is real. 

You know, and I’m not saying that in a braggadocious kind of way or anything like that, it’s just, when you set yourself up a certain way, when you’re young, everything has to be processed through you because these companies don’t want to lose their livelihood to get sued or anything like that. So you just have to do it, you know, and it may seem like at the time, I, well, I’m spending money on this, but it pays off. It really does. It pays off. I get calls from people. Sometimes I do just the song you played in this, on this. I heard it in this new movie. And for me, since I’m in the union, it’s just a matter of calling SAG AFTRA or the musician union.And saying, I was in this movie and their attorneys go after the money, their incentive is they get paid. They get their little portion of whatever they collect from me. So, man, I found, I found tens of thousands of dollars  

Because you’re smart again because you treat it like a business and you know how to go after it and when to go after it and where to go to get it. And I think there’s not much help in like in a — man, My husband and I were just talking about this the other night, a lot of big labels put tons of money into copyright claims. You’re not allowed to use this song on Instagram. You’re not allowed to use that song in this. And there’s a lot of money tied up in copyright. And it’s only any good if somebody actually makes a claim, like it’s only, you’re only protected if you’re looking out for yourself. So it’s, as you, as much as it is about having a union for protection, it doesn’t mean that the ball is not, is totally not in your court. You do still have responsibility to keep an eye in an ear out for your work that might be out in the world.  

And a lot of times people won’t tell you, they use it. You just have to sorta kind of stumble upon it. The union doesn’t go out and try to track that stuff for you. You know what I mean? So a lot of times you know, you rely on your friends and loved ones and people, you know, that you’ve made contacts with. And sometimes it could be a music exec somewhere in, Hey, you know, and they will help you out. I heard this and that, you know, and they will turn your onto where your stuff is being played or used without your consent. That’s huge. Yeah. So that’s sorta kind of one of those things you have to stay on top of you. Can’t just slide and go to the club.  

So, um, I remember Ava and I got involved more heavily with SAG-AFTRA around the same time. And for me, that was after the future sex left show tour, I was a union member before the tour and the tour was over, lasted over a year. I didn’t do any union gigs during that time. And I lost my membership. I had to rejoin after the fact. And I remember being pissed about having to rejoin because that, you know, as I mentioned before, the, the, um, to become a member is not cheap. And so I’m doing it twice. I was frustrated. So I decided with my arms folded that I was going to go into that union building and find out what they’re all about. So I went to one of these, you know, one of their member — member, only meetings. And I just fell in love with so many of the people that work there. I started seeing the member, or I started seeing the union as a membership. And that’s, and that’s the truth. The union is made up of its members. It’s only as good as we are.  

Real people, yes!  

So it became less a them versus us and more of a we. And that really changed the scope for me, um, changed my relationship and it helped me do more for the union and in return, I’m getting so much out of it. Yeah. It’s awesome.  

Yeah. I’ve got these numbers down. I know who to call now. Question my phone. Yes. Yes. 

I’ve got numbers like that too. So yes. Yeah, yeah. And they’re really helpful, man. They’ll stick there. They’ll stick their neck out for you and they will follow through. They won’t just say, okay. Yeah, we’ll get to that. Then you have to call them two weeks later. No, they’re calling you back the next day.  

I will say I’ve had both. I’ve had, I’ve had both experiences where if you stay on, then they stay on. If you stay on and drop off the face of the earth and stop returning your emails then,  

But the people you have that you know, now that you could contact, they get right back with you.  

Oh, for sure. After those relationships have been made 100%,  

The know when Dana’s calling it’s business,  

Um, okay. Terry, this is brilliant. Thank you so much for offering, you know, my husband calls you “The Real Deal Terry Santiel” Yeah.  

That came from Marty. 

Daniel’s still, he might, he might hate me for saying this. He still credits you for introducing him to the single product that brought, I don’t, I don’t know if I can say the most comfort or joy in his life, but, and by the way, my husband is not a person who prioritizes comfort. He’s fine with not being comfortable, but you introduced him to this little mechanical, uh, tweezer thing, like hair, a hair, trimmer.

Yes the nose trimmer! Let me tell you about those nose trimmers. I’ve seen people, man. And it’s like, if you don’t keep those nose hairs trimmed,

Its all you’re going to stare at 

They catch things and it’s, and it’s crazy because if you’re having a conversation with somebody that got something in their nose your focus is not on the conversation.  

Its snot 

Should I say something? Should I not? Is it going to move? You’re distracted.  

It’s a crazy, it’s a crazy thing, you know? And then, and then that could be sensitive. You know what I mean? It’s the type of person you would say that to. How are they? There’s all kinds of things that led me to think about another crazy story. I was in a, I was presenting some songs to a music exec once this was many years ago. And I’m not going to say any names, we’re going to start with not saying any names. So I’m in the office, they’re playing the song. It’s a woman. Right. And she’s in a very high power position. We’re in her little small office in this building. I’m being so political.  

I see, I see where this, and I don’t like it. 

She farted, but she..

I did not, I did not expect that.

But it wasn’t silent giant. You know, it was one of those. It wasn’t like I would rather, she did a regular fart.  

Silent, giant hahaha  

So the rooms filled up amazing air. Right.  

How do you know this person? Is it only the two of you? How do you know it was her?  

Well for us in this office. There’s so now in my head, I’m going okay. Is she checking me to see what type of person I am? Am I going to say anything  

Its a part of the audition.  

Was it an accident? And maybe I should. So all of this is going through my head. So I’m just, Oh my gosh, I’m stuck. You know, I don’t know. Okay. Well, how do you deal with this? 

What did you do? 

What I ended up doing was saying something about it. So, you know, when the song finished playing, I was like, okay, are we address the elephant in the room? Those are the words. And that’s it.  

Incredible 

Well, that’s a great, that’s a good one. The elephant in the room.  

I didn’t know what to do. I mean, I really didn’t know. And by me saying something was probably the worst thing because she took it really personally and she acted like nothing was wrong and nothing happened. And that’s how that ended. It couldn’t be any worse.  

Terry that is not the story I was expecting This Terry, this might be the first official fart story on the podcast.  

My, well, it happened,  

You know what I like, you know, what I like though about that is that you gave the opportunity for her to ignore it. You said, are we going to address the elephant in the room? Instead of did you fart? Like you gave a little grace, you give a little grace. And, uh, and then she took it and ran.  

And that was how that ended. And I was on the project, you know, and it was a pretty big project. It was a movie thing. So,

Oh God, I’d still say you’re winning. So it’s okay. You’re winning. It’s a great story to have.  

Um, it’s it. That is a great story. And I’m this close to letting us end on on that story. Okay. I do have one more question. You you’ve been around for a long time. You’ve done a lot of incredible things. You’ve, you’ve not only built a foundation, but uh, a fully sustaining thing. It’s not just the foundation. It’s, uh, it’s the whole body. It’s all of it. And I’m wondering if there’s anything that you haven’t done that you want to do, like a, a project that you’re looking forward to, or a prediction for music that might happen in the future.  

Um, you know, I’m open for anything that may come my way. You know what I mean? As far as helping other people out or doing things like that, I’m at the point now where I want to pay forward or can pay it forward, you know, and I’m into talking to people and just, if I can sweat a little bit of knowledge or insight on, on something for somebody, those are the things that are important, you know? Um, yeah. You know, I have money coming in all the time, so that’s not an issue. So you don’t have to about. How you’re gonna, yeah. You don’t have to worry about the hustle. So you just, you help you help everybody until the next thing comes along. And then you go move on that. I’m never going to stop touring and making money or doing anything like that. I’m going to do this till I’m 90. That’s my retirement. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I could be, I could be Uncle T. You know what I mean? I can be the old, you know, I don’t care about that.  

When you look when you’re 90, you’re probably going to look in your sixties, come on. Like, you know, I could get away with a whole lot.  

Yeah, yeah. You too. Look at you, man. You look like you’re still 20 years old.  

It’s true. You do. And you got a baby.  Terry did you know this? 

Say that again. 

Did you know that? Ava has a little one. 

Yes I did. Congratulations. Ava, thank you for that. Somebody cause you guys have like three, you guys had babies at the same time. Tammy had a baby. Nancy has a little one. 

And AJ. 

And AJ! You guys like look at you guys, all moms and you know what the best now the beauty of your life starts because now you have another. And that’s the other thing. Cause I, I grew up doing the same thing. I had to raise a son through all of these other things that I was doing. So now you have to balance all of it together. You’ve got to balance your career, your life, marriages, all of these things are all factored into life, but you all have to move forward together.  

Terry, do you have a guiding principle in terms of balance? Is there, is there a compass that keeps you, you know?  

Yeah. Keep an open mind. You know what I mean? And don’t get caught up in your own personal ego. Cause a lot of people get caught up in their own personal ego and, and everything goes crazy at that point because people get stubborn and stuck in their, in their reality that may not even be a reality, but yeah. Yes.  

That’s huge. And that’s helpful. I will remember that as I am in the market for maybe a goldfish, uh,  Not, not quite,  Not quite to the human being point yet. My husband and I are talking about getting a Roomba, one of those, uh, vacuums that lives it own life. Yeah. We’re thinking about it or thinking about it. But I know  

I used to have, um, a person to come clean the household once, once a week, but I don’t even do that anymore. Since this whole COVID date. I’m like, huh, I can do this **** myself. So I’ve got all of this time.  

I Got it. 

Yeah. And it’s unfortunate for them cause they’re not making as much money, but I still paid for that one day as much as for two weeks, you know what I mean?  

It’s safer, safer for you.  

I don’t want, you know, cause I don’t want people in the house. It’s crazy, but it’s just this is spotless now.

I was just going to say you, you keep a clean house. You keep a clean nose clean. Clean Life. Clean life. He’s clean. He’s clean. Well, Terry, I cannot thank you enough for joining us today.  

I don’t even want to get off the phone.  

Well, we do have, I mean, we might call this episode rap, but I have a special question that I need to ask you. I ask all of my questions. I ask all of my quests. I ask this question to all of my guests. Um, and this might, this might be a whole another conversation. So I will put a pin in this one. Although I would love for you to be able to tell the listeners where to find you, if they’re interested in finding more of your work or in talking to you or in, uh, renting a property from you possibly. So what’s, what’s the best way for people to find you.  

You could just, you can email me. How about that? That’s the easiest and it’s um, email address is my name Terrell —  T-E-R-R-A-L with, four Zs — Z-Z-Z- Z @aol.com. (terralzzzz@aol.com) And it will come through 

Can we find you on instagram? 

Yeah. I do have an IG. You know what? I’ve got it. I’ve got to be quite honest about it. I got bored with it. You know what I mean? And I haven’t really posted or done too much on that. I’ll look at it from time to time Facebook. I will never go on, I do have Facebook account and you know, but it’s, everything’s at my name, but it’s @TerrySantiel everything’s @TerrySantiel and it’s a last name is spelled S-A- N- T -I- E- L. And Terry is with a Y — T -E -R- R- Y.  

I’ll be sure to put that in the show notes to the episode as well. So everybody knows where to find  

Yeah. Twitter, uh, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram are all the same.  

Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you Terry. I couldn’t thank you enough. I adore you. This was the best, so much fun. My cheeks hurt  

For your listeners. If you go on tour with anybody, don’t get caught up in the celebrity a hundred percent.  

How do they do that? Terry tell them how to do it or how to not tell them how to do that.  

I guess that’s on each individual. You know what I mean? Because everybody’s paths is going to be a little bit different in their connections with the different things that occur. But you just have to, I guess the way to do that is just to understand that you are not the artists.  

Hmm. Yeah. I, I think one of the other like Ava, I’ll, I’ll speak for our relationship from my behalf of our relationship, but that, that was one tremendously grounding thing for me was having a real relationship with a person that wasn’t about visibility or, uh, a red rope anywhere or a fancy outfit like that, that friendship kept me very in touch with myself, my, my actions, my words, um, and it was fruitful and it was real and it was beautiful. And so having a real relationship on the road, other than just a relationship with the crowd or a really relationship with the club or a relationship with the money, that was huge for me. And the thing, this, this wasn’t until 2020, but on the 2020 tour, Terry, you remember I had, I did my daily videos. I had, I had a personal project that I was as accountable for as I was for my gig. And that was also tremendously helpful.  

I remember being in Scotland and watching you dance with the guys,  

A Scottish bagpipe guy that was a good video. I like that one. 

I may have been holding the camera  

You Probably where I’m going to find that I’ll put that in the show notes as well. Yeah, that was a good one. That that’s, that’s huge though. Like stay, don’t get caught up in the hype and there are a thousand different ways to do that. Um, it’s actually quite simple actually, because there’s one way to get caught up in the hype, but there’s many ways to not. Have a project, find a friend, you know, read, invest in the future, make decisions from the future, with the future in mind, not from the present moment and the present moment, always, almost always once the immediate gratification of like go to the club, get a drink, have the expensive mood, uh, have you.  

And I’m not saying, but don’t not do those things. You just, 

Everything in moderation.

Yeah. Doing the moderation that’s you know what I mean? It’s like, ah, I don’t really need to be there tonight. I shouldn’t be doing right. And you know what, let me just say this to me. I don’t, I’m always, I got like me and they used to say like with me one night, how I ended up getting in to that whole real estate thing is I saw one of those infomercials on TV and I was like, Oh, you can make money off of other people’s money. And I was like, well, I don’t need other people’s money to make money. How do you do that? And I tried it, I flipped the property. And I think I made like my first one maybe $40,000. I was like, Oh, that was easy. That was fun. And that only took a couple of months to make 40 grand. So then I did another one and another one and I ended up, um, you know, in the course of a year, you know, I did well.  

I mean, I love you so much.  

I could have been at a club and miss that information. That’s my point. So anyway. Okay. That’s okay. Sorry. I know we’ve got to get off, so  

We’re doing it. I appreciate you. I just think the world of you. Thank you, Terry.  

Thank you. Love you too. 

Love you so much. Bye bye.  

Okay, so that was  “the real deal” Terry Santiel. Terry’s right.  

That was so much fun. It was wonderful reconnecting with him.  

I just can’t get over the fact that the same guy that gave us real estate advice was telling us fart stories  

Pretty incredible.

So good. Um, what were your biggest takeaways?  

Oh, my biggest takeaway is that he is literally a part of history. He is history. He is a living legend, and I know we tend to use that word loosely, but he really is. He has stood the test of time. Um, he’s, we’ve got so much to glean from him. I just really enjoyed this little sit down here.  

I couldn’t agree more. He he’s, he is himself and his work have been hugely prominent in the past, in the present. And from the sounds of it, he’s really investing in the future. He’s figuring it out, I adore. I’m very happy to be sharing that episode with you all. Um, I hope that you enjoyed hearing from Terry as much as we enjoy talking to him, I wish you could have seen all the faces, just smiles.  

And I think we said we surmised this episode with Terry as clean it up, read up and keep an open mind.  

Clean it up, read up, keep keeping up. That’s it. Yup. That’s it. Those simple things. And you too will still be producing top tier content when you’re, how old is Terry? Do we even know? 

I didn’t ask, you know what? 

This might be a moment I’m going to go ahead and I’m going to check the Googles.  

Okay. So Terry’s around 72. We just took 15 minutes to do a math break around 72.

We had to research. 

Yep. That’s true. That’s true. And we want to save you time so we didn’t share with you how long it took us to do that math. So that puts him in, in around the same ballpark is Miss Toni Basil. Yes. Um, 

I mean they are a fountain of youth. 

It’s true. That that’s really important to notice because I don’t like, and, and, and the thing that unifies them, is this ever learning yes this ever practicing and I do think it’s an open open-mindedness open-mindedness yeah. All right. I’m open. That’s it. I’m open. I’m going into the world open. I’m staying forever young. Um, and I, I hope that you all are forever inspired by that. It was so much fun. Ava. Thank you so much for joining me. 

Thank you for having me! This was fun.  

My pleasure. We’ll do it again. Sometime love you to bits.

Me, again, wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you’re digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don’t forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating or review because your words move me to number two thing. I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops. And so, so much more. All right, that’s it now for real talk to you soon. Bye. 

Ep. #20 The Past, Present, and Future of LIVE Shows with Iggy Rosenberg

Words That Move Me with Dana Wilson
Ep. #20 The Past, Present, and Future of LIVE Shows with Iggy Rosenberg
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My guest, Iggy Rosenberg, has worked his way from NightClubs in Buenos Aires, to Crew Chief on the biggest concert tours of our time.  Then he flexed his creative muscles as a Lighting Designer in the concert and corporate worlds and now he is the Director of Business Development at Lightswitch a mega visual design firm.  That is more than 27 years of work on LIVE SHOWS.   In this episode, we talk about how Tour life has prepared us for Quarantine,  and how Zoom is to Dance as Kindle is to a books.

Show Notes

Quick Links:

 Iggy Rosenberg

Lightswitch

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers like you get the information and inspiration you need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, master mover, Dana Wilson, and if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artist story, then sit tight. But don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place.  

Dana: Hello and welcome to episode 20. Thank you so much for being here. How are you feeling today? I am feeling appreciated. Yeah. Appreciated. I’ve been seeing new daily doers doing incredible things and I see some day oners that have been listening to the podcast since the very beginning that are well into their hundreds of daily doing, doing daily. I am so proud of you all and um, go back and listen to episode one if you have no clue what I’m talking about right now. Great. Also, just more broadly, thank you all for your messages, support, encouragement. I’m getting a lot of feedback via email and direct messages and tags on IG, so thank you for all of that love. I’m glad that you’re digging the pod. And if you are new here, welcome. I know that you’re going to find some grade a information and inspiration here, especially in this episode. I am jazzed about it, super confident that you’re going to dig this and I’m excited to get into it.

But first let’s talk wins. My win this week is that I’ve been wearing these um, blue blocker, like blue light blocking glasses and loving the way my eyeballs feel. Yes, that’s the thing that I consider is eyeball feel. Um, right out of the gate. This is definitely not a paid endorsement. I have no relationship with the makers of these glasses. Um, but I’m finding them super helpful and I thought that that would be a good one to share because light plays a huge part in this episode. Wink, wink, teaser, teaser. Um, so back to these weird blue blocker glasses. I want to first preface this by saying they’re not FDA regulated because they are not medicine. And there is honestly a lot of debate around whether or not they’re helpful or just hype. But the glasses I bought were only 17 bucks. So I figured I would just see for myself, see what I did there. See anyways, so I’ve been wearing them for about four days and um, honestly I’ve noticed some improvement by the end of each night. My eyes aren’t stinging, my head isn’t pounding and I’m getting to sleep super fast. Granted that could be for 100 other reasons. It very well could be a placebo effect, but for less than $20 I will take the sugar pill. If I think it’s working and it’s not causing me any harm, then who cares? So I have added these amazing to me glasses to our words that move me Amazon shopping list where you can find all of the other gadgets and gizmos and good reads that I mentioned here on the podcast and that Amazon shopping list can be found on the show notes to this episode, episode 20 on my website, theDanawilson.com So enjoy that. Oh, also a note, a word to the wise. I guess if you are editing photos or videos or working on anything where color is important, obviously make sure you check your work without the glasses on because they do change the way your screen looks pretty substantially. Okay, great. Lot of talk about glasses. Now you go, what’s your win? What’s going well in your world?  

Killer. All right, congrats. Keep crushing it. Okay. This week my guest is  Iggy Rosenberg, to put it very, very briefly. Iggy is illuminating. He got his start working in nightclubs in Buenos Aires. He’s from Argentina and has a great accent, unrelated. Then he worked as a roadie on big, big concert tours. Then he became a lighting designer and now he is the director of business at a major visual design firm called Lightswitch. Iggy has worked in just about every layer of live shows that there is and in this episode we peel back the layers and take a look at almost all of them. Without any further ado, here is my conversation with Iggy Rosenberg. 

Thank you so much for being here on the podcast today. Welcome and really quickly introduce yourself.  

Iggy: So my name is Iggy Rosenberg. I’m a lighting and production designer. I come from, I was born and raised in Argentina. I’m going to say this and I moved here in 2004, which seems incredible, uh, toured, for many, many years. Did a lot of rock and roll stuff, been around the world a few times. I’ve seen some really, really cool stuff. And then, uh, and then I made a break out of touring into the corporate world and I joined a design firm called, Lightswitch and last year I got promoted to director of business development. So I still design, uh, I still design a lot, I’ll never stop designing, but I’m, uh, I’m in charge of also finding clients and keeping clients and I’m finding new opportunities.  

Incredible. Okay. So your experience and training and skill set goes like many, many layers deep, um, all sides of the entertainment business. I guess. And I’m so curious about all of it. Maybe let’s start with touring. How would you introduce, or how would you explain the role of a crew chief to somebody that, and that’s what, that’s what you were on the road. How would you explain that role to somebody who knows nothing about being on tour?  

You know, you, you go, I think like any other job, you go through the levels, um, and you learn their systems and you learn how to build things. And then you go on the road and you’re the number five guy in a four man crew and you go up the positions and you keep learning. Yeah. Tours are an interesting beast and I think a lot of people maybe don’t realize that the actual touring party isn’t that big. Right? It takes a lot of people to build this. And the only way you can do this, especially with local labor, is to delegate. So you have a person that’s in charge of, like in my case, the lighting crew. And then we usually have like four or five people that work directly with me that they’re on the tour with us. Um, so we usually have someone that’s called it the Dimmer Tech.  He’s in charge of all the power distribution, all the cables. Uh, we’ll usually have a couple of guys that specialize in moving lights and repairing them and hanging them. But you have to keep that crew working with their local labor. So all I do is I will bounce between them to make sure they have everything they need and trying to stay ahead a couple steps ahead of what their next job is. Um, and then communicate with the production side, you know, with the stage manager, with the local store, with the production manager. So you’re kind of in between, between production and, and the sort of logistical side. The on the day I’m the worker bees running around building the shell.  

A lot more communication than I expected from that answer to be honest. Okay. So, um, I loaded out a couple of times. Um, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, the choreographer for the tour that I was on insisted because I was a rookie. It was my first world tour with, um, JT. It was the future sex love show tour and the choreographer, Marty Kudelka, who I just had on the podcast said like, before this tour is over, you must, must load out. I had made friends with a couple of the carps by that point. So, uh, we did it. My, my best friend and I, Ava Bernstein on that tour, we load it out and it was a fully like four hour, the dirtiest my hands have ever been in my life at the end of that load out a beer and pizza had never tasted so good. It was, it was really hard work. So how much would you say of your time was split between the really hands on grunt work and then the communication? Like the delegation?  

Uh, you know, there’s a, I like to be active. Uh, I was always a climber, so I was, I would go up and climb on the rigs. There is a moment, you know, I know nowadays, especially now that I’m a designer, I, I’m not really allowed to push stuff around, um, for insurance purposes. Uh, but I tell people I’ve, you seen me with a harness, like something’s gone terribly wrong. Like if I’m climbing somewhere, like, like I always had like one truss to build or two, but I couldn’t spend too much time in that because the more time I spent heads down looking at what I’m doing, I can’t look at the team. So you, I had something I would help, I would jump in wherever else needed help. Um, but most of it was you just, it was a giant spiral. You just keep going between the teams making sure.  And a big thing is you’re just looking at the very big picture, right? Because the guys have their small picture and then the local stations have even smaller because they don’t know the tour. They just, that’s the first time they’ve seen it, that they, so you give them smaller bits to work on and then I have the bigger picture and then, you know, the stage manager has even bigger picture. So you kind of have to stay a few steps away from doing the groundwork. Uh, I do. And this is different shows and different tours at different mentalities where I came from, the crew chief, uh, would load and certify the trucks at the end, make sure that they were safe and they were loaded and you make the packs and you make sure because you have to load them in a way that makes sense on the way in. Um, so you, I would load all the trucks, uh, you know, most of the times or have someone help me with, you know, we could do multiple at a time, but that was the biggest sort of thing was dumping in the morning, making sure everything went to the right places, um, during the day, making sure that you, so you load in thinking about the load out. You can’t bury yourself cause then you’re, you know, you screw yourself in the end.  

Cool. I love this. Um, Oh it’s making me miss tour life. I think it’s very odd, very ironic that tour life is kind of a perfect training for quarantine life. I say that it’s, I say that as ironic because obviously on tour you are almost constantly surrounded by other people. But being on the road taught me how to communicate from great distances. Right? Like I was keeping in touch with my fiance, now my husband, with my family, you know, you get real good at FaceTime and Skype. My last tour was before zoom was cool, but you get good at communicating with people that are far away. You get good at communicating in general. But also how to live with less. Like you have two suitcases and, and you don’t have the things that you quote need like my blue bottle coffee or my trader Joe’s weird items.  Like you, you become far away from the things that you’re used to. And that is a reminder of how we can be resourceful and how we can live with less, which I think is a beautiful gift of this time. Um, but it also teaches you how to be adaptable and makes you cherish home, which is, which is something that we’re all, um, maybe getting a little sick of right now. But other than other than this like big picture muscle that you got really strong at, what are the other essential skills and mindsets that you took away from tour life?  

You know, there’s well, in general tour life beyond my role and I’ve always been a big proponent of this and I’ve always talked to my clients about this and until this day, I’m a big believer that particularly the live entertainment industry, unlike any other industry in the world where you can call someone that in any other job is your direct competitor. Like, like I’ve had production managers had to go to their kids’ weddings and they’ve called another production manager to come fill in for a week. And I said, calling the CEO of your competitor company to let come fill in and know that in a week like you’re going to come back and the guy’s going to go, well there’s your show back again. And you know that it’s okay. We’re all friends. It’s a community that really lives and breathes upon the relationships and the friendships that you generate. We’re very lucky to consider, you know, our clients, our friends, we treat them with the same level of respect. And sometimes maybe you say the things that we tell friends and, but that is, that is a big sense of community because you are, you know, somebody told me once we had a wardrobe girl that was, it was her first tour. She came from TV and she’s like, you guys are always so angry. I’m like, well, will you see us doing a load? And I’m like, you have to understand there’s, there’s, there’s 90 people that Oh one their stuff to be in the same place at the same time. Yeah. It gets kind of tense, but after we’re done it’s like, Oh, let’s go have lunch, let’s go have lunch. And everybody’s fine. Like there is no animosity. I mean it does happen of course, but, but that sense of, of, of cooperation and community is like the best thing that comes out of that. And then probably the ability to panic last.  

Ah, yes. 

After, after you see enough things go wrong. Yeah. I tell people that because I used to be, I used to be a very angry roadie in the beginning of my career and then nothing happened. It just stopped. It was a very odd, like, there wasn’t like an enlightened, like nothing, you know? No, no sun beam came down and like shone on me. Uh, but now one of my things I say is like, you know, if the stage is on fire, yelling at the fire isn’t going to make it go away. Like you either let it burn or you go get the fire extinguisher. So you learn how not to panic. And nowadays it’s like, yeah, fuck it, let’s fix it or not fix it. But let’s, you know, everybody’s stopped yelling and running around. It’s okay.  

 It’s okay. Yes. That, that’s the other, um, quarantine prep. That life on tour has taught me when you’re working on really tight timelines and relatively high stakes circumstances, right? Like, you know, the doors are gonna open at seven o’clock and 70,000 people are going to come in here expecting to see this show and X isn’t working. Right. So we, we’ve gotten really good at responding to things.  

Yeah. Like we’ve, we’ve had, uh, I had, I remember one of my first doors, uh, I don’t know why don’t exact, I don’t remember the whole thing. It was a while ago. Well we ended up with a bunch of smoke machine liquid on the stage. So the stage was I got a bit of a ice rink. It was either really cold or something. But yeah, I mean the dancers were like, we can’t do this anymore. So we had to go and spray Coke. And again, between numbers, like while the artist was speaking in the front, there was a bunch of guys behind like spraying Coke on the floor cause cause this is where like, you know, it’s, it’s impossible. It affects everyone.  

That’s a really good example of responding to emergencies with creativity. And like I, the Coke, Coca Cola is an interesting tool. I’ve used it in classrooms as well as onstage. Um, I remember a show with JT that we did the Stade De France. Um, it was an, it’s an outdoor venue. It’s a soccer stadium and it was raining that day, which made for a really like Epic performance of Cry Me A River. Um, but it also was really, really dangerous. And I remember right before the show when it was just like misting our wardrobe, head of wardrobe started off sticking sandpaper on the bottom of our shoes, like double stick sandpaper. And I was like, I’ve never seen nor would I have ever thought of that. It was a great solution. So again, tour life, preparing you for real life, let’s get creative, let’s solve problems.  

Tour life is ripe with opportunities to problem solve in a world where you’re doing the same show over and over, like sometimes hundreds of times. I’m continually continuously, continually, you know what constantly impressed at the number of things, even the number of new things that can go wrong. Another thing that’s unique to touring life as Iggy mentioned is that although it is a very competitive industry, there are so few people that get to do it and get to doing it really, really well. That when it comes to finding a substitute or a fill in of some sort, it’s not uncommon to ask your competitor to do that for you. Just imagine that for a second. So wild. It’s so wild to me. And that’s just the beginning of the, that is tour life. Iggy and I exchanged wild tour stories for quite a while, but you simply have to hear about who’s tour shut down a military airport. Want to take a guess if you guys correctly, I want to know that you guessed correctly. So send me a direct message, let me know words that move me podcast on Instagram. Okay, back we go.  

I toured with Paul McCartney for a couple of years. I couldn’t really understand the apeal of the Beatles and stuff. I just, it wasn’t my generation. I wasn’t exposed to it until I did my tour and I was like, I get it. Like I get the a hundred thousand people in a stadium, you know, and it was just one of those monster shows where you get charted everywhere. It was amazing. Uh, but we, we saw some weird stuff in the tour and one of them we do literally, they shut down an airport because the radar, it was a military airport and their radar, every time they swung around would turn off and on all the video walls. And the promoter called the airport and the military captain or whatever, the guy in terms of the military airport went like, well, you know, we’ll turn it off if that’s the case. And it was, and we’re like, well, you know, it’s an airport, but we’ll have to figure out what to do with it. He goes, well, I don’t know. We’ll just, we’ll just turn it off. We’ll turn both of them off. Nuts! 

That’s nuts. Holy smokes.  

Its Paul Macartney, he gets away with it. You like, people will do whatever he needs to, you know.  

Wow. The, the power, the power. Um, okay. So on the road as crew chief, uh, you got to know the artists. You got to know big audiences. You, you got to see shows like on the ground, and then you became a designer, sort of transitioned into the, the artistic side. Um, and you must have been up to your ears and software and tech and all sorts of things. I don’t even know come along with that profession. Um, could you actually explain the role and importance of a lighting designer for a live show?  

Yeah. And it depends a bit. I mean, now the things are a bit more combined. Back then there was a very big distinction between rock and roll and corporate and TV. Now, you know, everything has a camera. We all carry a camera with us. So, so we kind of have to light for everything. Like the essence of design is a, it’s the most elegant solution to a problem. So the thing is you’d have to reframe what your problems are. And for me there’s always three. There’s an artistic problem of how do we make this look good? How do we make the artists look good? How, or my now we do a little corporate, you know, how do we keep the brand and the theme of the show, there’s been, you know, the producers design a show and we have to keep that going. Um, how do we make them look good on camera, on to a live audience?  How are they comfortable on stage? There is a monetary problem, there’s always a budget. And how do we get the show with this amount of money? And that’s what a lot of our relationships with vendors come into play. Um, and then there’s a physical problem, which is I can design the biggest show in the world, all the money in the world. And if it doesn’t fit in the building or the building can hold the weight, then we go back to square one. So you have to balance all those, those three things. Um, some were in there and it’s not a problem, but it’s a thing you have to, there’s always also cooperation with other departments. You know, you have to talk to the video crew and make sure that, you know, our color temperature works with our cameras and talk to the sonic guy to know that he didn’t put a bunch of lights in front of a drape that’s gonna catch on fire.  Like a lot of times the older guys have to, they have a much more physics approach to things, to the situation. So kind of with the software tells them the speakers have to go, they have to go an something in front of like the, like the lights up the guys, but we have to move around, you know, you move two inches that way and I moved two inches this way and maybe we can make it work. So yeah, it’s a lot of balancing but, but I think those are the three main areas that we tend to juggle. So heat and as an audience member at a show, you might have no idea that all of that had to be considered. 

Oh, what else do you wish that people knew about what you do?  

Yeah, yeah. I can probably tell you, you know, like without lighting, it’s just, it’s just radio. But, uh, no, I think there is, and then maybe depends on where you come from. Is, is that whatever we do is for their enjoyment. Uh, I’m a big believer, I started in nightclubs in Argentina. I’m a big believer that people should attend an event and not go see one. So I tend to like the audience a lot more cause I want them to be a part of like, I think especially corporate after you’re there for 12 hours looking at a guy on stage, you want your environmental react to it. Um, but at the end goal is to help our clients tell their story and help the audience enjoy what they’re seeing.  

You talked a little bit about lighting for everything, um, in regards to TV or live or like a big stage show. Um, and then you referenced that being, because everybody now has a camera in their pocket. So has that made your job like exponentially difficult because things need to look good from all angles for all lenses? Like how do you even approach that task?  

Maybe not exponentially. It’s just added another layer that we need to balance. Um, there’s always been, and this is very probably very, very, you know, on the nose because you do work with, you know, you work in the dance community and there’s always been this little rift right between the techs and the dancers and, um, Oh, you know, we liked dancers so they look good for example, but we also have to make sure that they can see and they know what’s happening on stage. And then we’ve had many arguments many times of like, I can’t see the Mark and If l light the mark, you look terrible and you know, and then, and then we, then we have that second layer of what the audience sees. And then, and then we had to add, like there’s always cameras and I imagine, but it was never a thing. But now that since they’re there and they’re all HD and the screens are incredible, well, we’re going to like, so I like, usually I light my artists,  like they’re televised. Um, these iphones. They’re, they’re very forgiving, but we just don’t know. We don’t know if the CEO is up there doing his big speech, if he’s going to go backstage and watch it on a calibrated screen with a camera, the right angle, or if there’s an assistant that’s going to shoot the video that she showed in her iPhone, that from down here up his nose, you know, so it has to look good for everyone and people take these, they’re their memories. You know, nowadays, I mean, I don’t know if anyone goes back to look at it. I was scrolling through my photos and I was like, I can’t believe I still have these videos. I’ve never seen them. Um, but people have the intentions of good. I mean it’s, it’s part of our skillset to do it, so we should do it. 

Incredible. Great answer. Thank you. I’m fascinated at the difference. You’ve highlighted a few between corporate versus concert events. Um, what are, what are some standouts? Like what are, as far as your angle of getting a job done 

All right. Now this might come as a shock you, but I don’t spend much time at big corporate events. Even before the covid shut down. I was super interested to hear how, wow my wrist makes a snapping sound every time I twist it like this. The things you learn when you’re doing a podcast. Anyways, I was very interested to hear about how many factors a lighting designer has to take into consideration when they’re working for a big corporation. The audience, especially for example, a tour can blast an audience with light and lasers and strobes for an hour and a half and that’s fine. More or less, I mean, unless you’re pregnant or have other health conditions, but imagine being faced with that with like concert tour level lighting for eight hours a day for five days of a big conference or something. Oh wait, that’s basically Coachella. Okay, well imagine going to a yogurt land conference because if I went to a corporate event, it would be a yogurt land conference, but imagine a big yogurt studio event that was lit entirely red gross. Or imagine going to a big tech firms, new product reveal or a car reveal or something that’s lit. The way the play place at McDonald’s is lit. Very confusing, very not hot. So much respect to the lighting designers out there. Really consider that everything you see has been considered by someone else if they’re doing it right. That is okay. So now Iggy finds himself firmly on the business side of a business that is not so firm at all at the moment. Let’s hear Iggy’s take on the current state of live and in person events. From the business point of view.  

Three months ago, we, my schedule was so packed that I was going to be home for, I think it was something like five days and a couple of months. Uh, and, and in 48 hours living 40 hours, we went from that to not having anything for six months. Um, so that was, I mean, besides the, the, the whipsaw that we got from that, um, you know, we, what we see, we, we were very lucky that we managed to transfer a couple of shows to virtual shows. So we, we broadcast them. So we kind of, in a week we had to turn the thing that was designed for a live audience into something that was designed to be shot with zoom. And it was, it was that probably the one of the first, um, in this new era of, of zoom broadcast events. Um, and it was a show for Hyundai  uh, for a car reveal.  Um, since then, yeah, that’s gonna be the next few months is going to be film green-screen corporate shows. Um, you know, a lot of our vendors have built entire streaming studios in their, in their warehouses. There’s been a lot of sudden appreciation for a set of the technology that I think even us, we just didn’t have like bandwidth and how do we get all this stuff into a computer and, and how do people see it and then like who can see it properly? How does the audio work and stuff a week go through scale that, you know, where the money, you know, as much bigger than, than, and the pressure is much larger. Mmm. You know, we still, we, we get pinged a few times a week about doing virtual events and we try to navigate our clients through it. Um, you know, and, and a lot of it has, the sense of cooperation between parties has been huge because everybody’s suffering at the same time. This isn’t like the TV guys suddenly have no work and we’re doing great. Or in the recession back in 2008 where the touring market kind of kicked off a bit because people couldn’t travel there. People just didn’t have money there. So they couldn’t travel. So then we’ll go see shows or touring kind of became these mega shows that we have now incorporated disappeared cause nobody had money. Uh, now just nobody has anything. Nobody can leave their house, nobody can get together. Nobody has money. So it’s, it’s stuff but, but you know, industries have to continue working. Um, people still have to sell things and people still develop products and um. It’s the right thing to do. We’ll continue to do virtual events and we think that in the future we’re going to have some sort of hybrid thing where there’s going to be 10 people in a room with everyone brought guests and there’s going to be 50 people in a room and there’s going to be a hundred. And it will slowly tip her up to like, I don’t think it will be in, in a month. They’re going to go, ah, everybody in that stadium, let’s go. Like it’s just not going to happen.  

All right. I had to jump out here because Iggy mentioned something very interesting that I hadn’t really considered before this moment during the recession in 2008 I was coming off of my first tour with JT and I started working almost immediately for Cirque de Solei and some of you are going to hate me for saying this, but I’m saying this because it’s an interesting observation. I think it’s worth shining some light on, sorry, I can’t help myself. These puns. Anyways, I didn’t own a home at the time. I didn’t even have rent. I’d gotten rid of my apartment right before we started touring and then Cirque housed me in Montreal for a short period and then for another short stint in Vegas. And as a humble dancer and dance teacher, my humble bank account was more or less immune to the wiggles and wobbles of the needle in terms of America’s economy. That’s how it was at the time anyways. Okay. I’m totally speculating here and you could probably shoot a million holes in my theory and please bring it, but my guess is that tour’s did relatively well in 2008 because a people couldn’t afford to travel, so they were willing to save up and shell out for the big shows that traveled to them, especially the shows that scooped them up into another world, a world where they felt sexy and cool and rich and free from all of their worries and stuff. It’s not uncommon actually. I think people use entertainment, music, movies, concerts, comedy shows, other shows, wink, wink to buffer negative emotions. Yeah. That was me raising my hand. The office was my drug of choice several years ago. Man, those belly laughs and even tears really helped me ignore many of the negative emotions that I really should have been processing. So raise your hand if you’re spending more than average or more than a healthy amount of time buffering with Netflix these days. Yeah, entertainment, whatever the platform, whatever the mode of distribution will always survive. We’re like a cockroach. Okay, let’s file that under similes I will never use again. Okay. Back on track. Back to my theory. Part B of this is that I’ve noticed that most parents will make big, big sacrifices in order to preserve the quality of life for their children. So as a dance teacher whose bread and butter came from teaching kids between seven and 17 again, yes, I did see a bit of a change during 2008 but I was far from out of a job. People worked really, really hard to keep their kids in dance class to keep their kids around dance and art and entertainment because those are the things that bring us joy. Those are the things that enhance our quality of life. Our covid crisis circumstances are quite different in the sense that travel, AKA touring and training and entertainment industries like movies and amusement parks are among the hardest hit. But the silver lining and you know that I have a silver lining, is that entertainment is as good as immortal. As long as there are people, there will be stories to tell and as long as there are stories to tell, there will be dance and theater and jokes and film and so on and so on. Okay. So that is my theory. Like it or not. Let’s jump back in now and talk about the future of entertainment and stories, specifically books.  

What I’m experiencing in dance in my work as a choreographer and as a teacher is affected in several different ways right now obviously, no, I’m not going on a tour at the moment. Um, and I’m also not going to any auditions at the moment and there aren’t, I know of a few, but there aren’t as many commercial opportunities. Um, I have heard of a few really interesting commercial shoots where production is, is delivering equipment to the homes of the talent and then the talent will shoot it themselves on whatever the camera, probably an iPhone or something, um, that they were sent. And then somebody from production will pick it back up when they’re done, sanitize it and get the data off of it and make, make a thing. So  

Brilliant idea. Yeah, I’ve never heard of that.  

I think there will be a lot of creative ways and like you mentioned a lot of ways that we get to work together to try to solve this problem and it’s all of our first time we are leveled and humbled by this unprecedented thing. But, um, the other area that I wanted to take a look at is this teaching for, for me and training for most professionals and for aspiring professionals is getting a huge punch in the face right now because most dance classes are not one-on-one. Most dance classes happen in person and in huge groups. So what we’re seeing, especially I think zoom is probably right, the most utilized zoom and Instagram live, um, for training right now for dancers. But, uh, on both of those audio lag and video quality are huge issues. I have basically no way of knowing that they see the right time. And timing is, is, is a big part of what we do. I won’t say that it, I won’t say that it’s everything, but it’s a big deal. Um, have you seen or do you have a futures glance at solutions to those types of problems?  

No, it’s funny cause we, we talked about this and especially, you know, I still have a couple of dance classes was very obviously off sync I’m not obviously not a dancer. So if I can tell, you know, like it’s pretty obvious that it’s going to be pretty awkward for people to take that class if that happens. You know, we sync stuff constantly, uh, through video. Um, I think that this keeps growing. There will be a point and this may exist and I may just not be aware of it. Then maybe there must be a way that you can on the front side, sync up the sound. 

Even when you are live, like at a concert stadium, what your eyes see is definitely different than what your ears hear, especially if you’re in the nosebleeds. So in a way, this isn’t a problem that’s exclusive to zoom 

Sound sound guys have to take into consideration delay and fades or, yeah, constantly. I think that the problem where the internet comes in is that everybody has a different, it’s not a controlled environment as much as concerts. I’m not controlled, but everybody has different internet providers and speeds and qualities. Yeah. Well I’ve thought about it lately. I think that that’s going to become a thing. And again, it may exist. I may just not,  

Speaking of it may exist. My husband and I watched minority report last night, which came out in 2008 but it takes place. The story takes place in 2050, something like 20, 50 something. So the, the distant but not unimaginable future. Um, and my husband and I like to joke, it had been a while since we’d seen it. It was not our first time watching it, but it had been awhile. We now are calling it acrylic report because all of the tech in that movie is made from Plexiglas. Um, and like not even that great looking, just like everything is acrylic hysterical. But, but there were some things that I think they really got right. For example, there’s this, like your irises get scanned and people are tracking your location and using your eye scan to target advertisements to you in a way that’s already happening. Right? Like my phone knows where I am and they know what I’m looking at and that information is being used to sell me things. Um, but one of the things that happened in this movie that, that particularly caught my eye, and I’m wondering if it is happening already, probably is, is this idea of nightclubs with individual pods where humans go in and have a virtual experience, whether it’s acting out some fantasy, be it awful or pleasurable, um, or something like I just want to go into a room and feel flattered for a second. I want people to tell me nice things about myself or I want to be the pop star for a change or, right. Um, now it doesn’t seem like that is all too far off. Do you know of things like that already happening? 

Right. So speaking of the business, um, you mentioned that your firm Lightswitch is really committed to coming out of this. And by this I mean, um, Corona times, uh, coming out of it better than you went in. So you might not come out of it with more money, but you’ll come out of it with more skills. Um, how is your company and then how are you focused on that?  

Well, you know, we were, we were kind of in a bit of a transition. We have, uh, we’ve, we’ve all used the same lighting system for, for a while now, uh, in the company, the new system, the new console came out, uh, right before this happened. Um, so I, you know, I just, I spent the last couple of weeks, you know, getting trained on it because I, you know, unfortunately I don’t have one, but, but there’s an offline version of pages in the computer. So I’ve been learning how to use it. Um, and a lot of it has been just talking to one another and Hey, what are you doing and how are things, and I met these, not necessarily a skillset of something technical, but keeping everybody grounded and, and you know, connected. And so a lot of, you know, happy hours and emails and keeping people at bridge and help with people with, you know, a lot of our, a lot of our people have, um, small companies, um, and they’ve been trying to get the loans that we have from the giant chain amongst lighting designers of, of, of, you know, my bank did this and my bank did that. And how did we get this protection loan? Um, I’ve been reading, I mean, I used to read a lot as a kid and then I stopped when I discovered the internet ruined me, but I moved a boomer myself. I didn’t know that I could, I could stay up late and watch TV so they didn’t have a problem. Uh, but I mean, I’ve been reading for graciously since this started. Um, which is good. I have a ton of books that I’ve always like half read, so I’ve been finishing them off. Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it’s just a lot out. There’s, there’s only so much we can do training wise, you know, online without the gear. But, you know, we’ve, I’ve been talking to a lot of manufacturers about, you know, stuff that they’re doing, um, helping them with their marketing. And a lot of them I’ve trained, I’ve changed their marketing from just advertisements and selling to, to teaching up and coming designers how to do stuff. So we’ve, we’ve done a couple of those and we’re going to continue doing them. Um, yeah, I mean, maybe we just come out of better people. 

Um, I’m so glad that you brought up books. Uh, I was having a conversation with my husband before this interview and, um, he’s an engineer and an artist and many, many things. And, uh, one of his first projects, one of the things that made him, uh, famous is a book scanning machine. And this was years and years and years ago when, uh, digitization of books was really a hot topic for intellectual property reasons. And, um, he brought up a really great point, which was right now we’re digitizing our live product, which is my dancing, my classes and those things are becoming digital. So when people ask me, do you think this is going to kill classes? Do you think this is going to kill concerts? Like if people can have it in their living room at any time on demand, um, are they going to stop going to classes once classes are a thing again? Are they going to stop going to concerts once concerts are a thing again? And my answer to that, at least for now, yeah, is people still have books, right? People still touch books. People still read books. Yes, they became digital. Yes, that happened. But most of the people that I know and talk to still prefer the real thing. Um, they’re shareable. They are notated like you can write in numbers, there’s art to it and you can, and you can give them to one another. You can transfer them. You can like smell them.  

Don’t get me wrong. I do have a Kindle and I read them. I can though, which came out of touring because when I started we didn’t have Kindles and I would have a suitcase full of books and books are heavy. Yeah. So, so we do have Kindles. Yeah. Books are great. It’s good to have. I love that. Horrible chill. Yeah. I think it’s, I think it’s a helpful analogy to think of for, for those of us that are looking at this with a, this doom and gloom a thought that, that this means the end of a certain thing. It definitely, definitely means a change. Yeah. We’re adaptable. I mean, if anything, humans are incredibly adaptable. Right. Um, and we like connection. You know, we’re not, we’re never not going to go and try and share a concert of music and our favorite band and the mindset that comes with it. Um, which is not the same if you’re going to living them by yourself. I mean, it happened. It may have to happen. Um, there, there may be a good side to this and how we reach people, how to communicate with people, but I think people will always want to go to a concert or a show and, and talk to other people in the hog and, and express their uniqueness and how they dress and that kind of stuff.  

Yeah. Oh man, my dressing has gotten very unique for these last months. And by unique, I mean, Oh, I wear whatever in the heck I want and then I wear it for five days straight. Um, well thank you so much for sharing your insights, your expertise. I’m just, I’m floored and always very interested to talk to non dancers, but people that have had a similar experience, whether it’s on tour or in problem solving, which is what I believe this whole creative game is about. Very, very cool. Thank you very much, Iggy, for taking the time. Yeah, I’ll talk to you very soon, I hope. Bye.  

Thought you were done. No. Now I’m here to remind you that all of the important people, places and things mentioned in this episode can be found on my website, the Dana wilson.com/podcast finally, and most importantly now you have a way to become a words that move me member, so kick fall changeover to patrion.com/w T M M podcast to learn more and join. All right, everybody now I’m really, really done. Thanks so much for listening. I’ll talk to you soon. 

Ep. #9 3 Words That Changed My (Dance) Life with Jason Bonner

Words That Move Me with Dana Wilson
Ep. #9 3 Words That Changed My (Dance) Life with Jason Bonner
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Episode 9 will leave you feeling fine. Personal trainer to the stars, Jason Bonner is on the podcast to talk motivation and excellence.  These words will help you take your work to the next level whether you’re in the gym, in the studio, on screen, or on stage.  Warning, you may leave this episode feeling very VERY motivated to make things happen.

Show Notes:

Enter our instagram contest!

https://instagram.com/wordsthatmovemepodcast?igshid=ctagczvve4kf

Transcript:

Intro: This is words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers like you get the information and inspiration you need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, master mover, Dana Wilson, and if you’re someone that loves to learn, laugh and is looking to rewrite the starving artists story, then sit tight but don’t stop moving because you’re in the right place. 

Dana:  Hello, hello friends. Welcome to the podcast. We’ll come back if you’re a recurring listener and welcome, welcome for the first time. If this is your first time listening, I’m stoked to be talking to you today. I’m very excited about this episode, but before I get into that I want to talk about something else that I am very excited about and that is the Instagram contest that we are having right now. We definitely are wanting to spread the words that move me and make sure as many people find the podcast as possible. So to do that we’re having an Instagram contest and I would like for you to take a look at all the details @wordsthatmovemepodcast on Instagram. It’s in our story. It has a special little album there. I think I’m using the right words all of a sudden I am not the master of Instagram anymore. I’m learning and I’m right there with some of you as I learn. Anyways, I’m very excited about the contest in order to see all the terms and the ways that you can win and also the things that you might win. Make sure you follow us on Instagram. That’s going to be the best way.. Well it’s the only way to be a part of the contest. Um, and it’s the best way to make sure that you are playing by the rules. Although occasionally I do recommend breaking them. Okay. So in addition to the contest, I also want to clear up a few things. Cause the other day I ran into a human being, an actual human in the flesh and she was like, Oh my gosh, I’m doing the daily challenge and I absolutely love it. I was like, that’s great. What’s your handle? And she told me her name, she told me her handle and I didn’t recognize it. I was like, I don’t think I’ve seen your project out there. And then through a little bit more digging, we discovered that she had been hashtagging “daily doing” instead of hashtagging “doing daily” And honestly you guys, I think I’ve probably said it both ways from the start of the podcast until now and this is something that is definitely worth a little clarification and carving out a special place for this. I want to see your daily projects.  

So I have decided to create a special hashtag, a bucket that we can put all of those beautiful things and that is #doingdailyWTMM as in words that move me. So if you are a daily doer, which is confusing cause I do say that a lot. If you’re a daily doer then you are hashtag doing daily. Yes. It feels really good to have that cleared up. Excellent. If you have no idea what I’m talking about right now, that is probably because you haven’t listened to episode one or episode two where I pose the challenge to all of my listeners to take on a daily creative act every single day. For some amount of time, preferably an amount that’s slightly longer than what you feel comfortable taking on. I promised myself I would make a video every single day for 365 days and I did it plus some. It changed my life. And I know that a project like this can change yours. So jump on over to episode one and two after listening to this episode and happy making, I’m so excited for you and for the ways that this can change your life. Hats off to all of my daily doers. Keep the hashtag doing daily. This is how I remember it by the way, hashtag doing because the doing is the important part. #doingdailyWTMM now let’s get into it. 

I’m stoked about today’s episode because I got a chance to catch up with one of my favorite people, Jason Bonner. Jason and I met when I was a dancer on tour with Justin Timberlake in 2007. So this was the, um, future sex love show tour. I was 20 years old. I turned 21 while we were on the road. Um, so I’m this tiny young danceling and this man who at the time was Justin’s personal trainer became my trainer as well and a very, very dear friend.  He’s one of the relationships that I made on that tour that has stood the test of time and is still um, a great friend and inspiration to me up until today. So I got to catch up with Jason and I have to be totally honest with you. We talked for over two hours and a lot of that talking is actually just cackling like words and sounds that you would need subtitles to understand. So I did edit this episode down into some really good digestible chunks of information and inspiration and I really hope that you dig it. Okay. Before we get into the words with Jason, I want to explain the being that is Jason, I want you to imagine a life scale GI Joe, like actual man sized GI Joe and then turn that up to X. Like, he probably isn’t, but it feels like Jason is eight feet tall and his like the circumference of his bicep is probably the circumference of my thigh at its widest.  You will probably hear in this interview him slamming his hands on the table and the microphone responds to that a little bit. So I do apologize. This is my first phone interview ever and I’m still learning a lot about that technology. So bear with me on the learning curve. Also, did I mention I am coming to today from my hotel, actually my hotel closet in Las Vegas, Nevada, which is where I am working right now. So I apologize if the sound is different or if there’s an occasional passer-by in the hallway, a door slam, a weird pipe sound. My pipes are making weird gargly sounds. I can’t explain it, but I think we’re safe. I don’t see any water anywhere, so I think we’re safe. Anyways, all sound aside. I’m very, very excited to share this conversation with Jason Bonner. So let’s dig in.  

Dana: Jason Bonner! I am so excited about this call. Really, truly, utterly. I can’t even handle it. Um. All right, so, the podcast, because it’s young and I want to tell you a little bit about the podcast and our listeners. Its primarily about creative careers and making art in entertainment. So some of my guests might be confused as to why I am speaking to personal trainer to the stars and I would tell them that is because you are much, much more than a personal trainer to the stars. So number one, please introduce yourself, all of your interests and all of the many different hats that you wear. 

Jason: How are you doing Dana?  My name is Jason Bonner, whether it’s training, whether it’s life coaching, whatever it is that I’m doing, I really love helping people. And through my friends in industry, the people that know me, they call me like the Jack of all trades because I really can do whatevers thrown at me. So I do everything from training to styling to image to branding for an artist, this is actually what I do. I kind of wear many different hats. I’ve done everything from A&R record to written on records before, as a writer. In it past eight months or so. I’ve uh, I started a management company. I have a two artists that I manage and a songwriter. And I wrote a film, with one of my best friends. About something that happened in my life, true story. It’s a comedy. So we’re in the process of getting that done now, so excited about it. The movie is basically like a mixture of Friday and Ferris Buller’s Day off. That’s the best way I can describe it. 

Dana: I want to live at the center circle of that Venn diagram that is exquisite.

Jason: I am, I’m beyond excited about it because it was something I didn’t really think about getting into. Oh. So it just happened. Mmm. The working out  on is really the easiest part of it. That’s like the easiest thing to do. Um, I work with, uh, Josh Groban, the a Joe Jonas, Frank Ocean, hit boy, Bruno Mars producer Rob Knox. This new kid. Aaron Wright, he’s amazing You hear about him soon? I worked in Luke James. Mmm.  Another producer named Monsour Producer Harvey Mason Jr before? I’m actually working with Chris Stapleton right now. Amazing guy. Flat out. Amazing. Mmm. I take it very seriously because I was on my way to be a pro athlete. Before, I got hurt. So I’m very competitive when it comes to what I do when I work with somebody in that capacity. Whether it’s training, whether its, branding whether it’s you know, conditioning for shows or whatever we’re doing. I’m really serious about it. And part of it is, you know, when you’re working with artists and people you’re close to, you kind of have to read them and understand the mannerisms. So part of why it worked so well with the people that I work with is because I studied their habits, I studied everything about them. So like, like for example, um, I’ve been working with Justin Timberlake since, the year 2000 so I pretty much know like the back of my hand. Like I can walk into a room and tell him, “you need something to eat or you need to go to sleep? Mmm. Anything. Literally anything.” 

It’s true. Jason is a great study of subtlety and human behavior in general and I think he gets a lot of that intel from movement specifically like posture, someone’s walk , their body language, their performance at the gym or their performance on stage. He could almost always tell if something was off, like if something wasn’t quite right and some of the time he could tell exactly what it was, whether it was not enough rest or too much rest occasionally or homesickness, relationship drama, family drama and by family drama I of course mean tour, family drama because when you eat, sleep, breathe, work and play together, that’s exactly what you become. You are family. So Jason’s eye for detail and like Olympic level people watching skills are what taught me that you don’t need to perform all the time. In fact, being a good audience member, being watchful that can help you do your job even better than all of the, all of the uh, exporting, right. Do a little importing. Just sit and watch. When I was on the road and training with Jason, his type of watchful felt a little bit like, um, like a law enforcement officer or like the way that a teacher watches over their classroom taking a test and they’re like looking to see if somebody is cheating or passing notes or something or a little bit like a referee watching a game like very, very closely. But I really think there’s more compassion to Jason’s style of watching. And actually one of my favorite things about becoming a people watcher thanks to him is that it helps me feel more compassionate towards others. And I like that. Okay. So now we’re going to talk a little bit more about my first tour and Jason’s style of quote, compassion, which is a special brand of no BS. Tough love.  

Okay. So I want to really quickly go back to the year that we met, which was, um, I believe it was 2007. The future sex love show tour. And I was a dancer and I assisted the creative director and choreographer, Marty Kudelka on that tour. I was 20 years old and I was green. And I remember meeting you and you, you make quite an oppression, quite an impression on a young lady, um, because you are so certainly who you are. And I remember at that time, I’m still figuring out who I am and I, um, I had these ideas about what a personal trainer to the stars was and you certainly look like that. Like you look like that guy. But I remember being very taken aback by how generous you are in giving your attention, your time, your talent. And I was very interested in getting healthier, getting more fit.  And I remember you, I remember thinking that a personal trainer was a certain thing and that I would have a whistle in my ear at 6:30 in the morning and you’d be a drill sergeant and you’d be like, banging down my door, get me to the gym. And you really weren’t that. So I would like to hear a little bit about how you encourage people into their own greatness without being a drill Sergeant and a heavy hand, even though you look tough. Mmm. And it was your voice in my head when I was like, no, get to the gym, get to the gym. But you only showed up for me when I showed up for myself. And I would love to hear more about why it is that you, why you operate that way. 

Hey Listen! This is the only thing in life. Only thing in life, no matter how much money you have, no matter how much you think you have,  that nobody else can do for you, right? You have to do it yourself. Like there’s, there’s no way around it you have to do this for yourself? So it’s one of those things where it’s like, listen, I could yell at you, I can scream at you, I could get mad at you, whatever did you face, whatever. It’s not going to matter if in your head you don’t want to do it. So I don’t care who you are. I can look somebody in the face and tell them you’re not serious. And there’ll be like, why is it because I know people, okay, who have that look that they want to change their lives. You don’t want to change your life? I say, so don’t ask me again or waste my time. Ask me something that you’re not serious about. So for me it’s like I don’t have the patience to deal with, with BS. So it’s just like you don’t take yourself serious. So why should I? Again, because I was a, you know, I was working on trying to be a professional basketball player. My drive for myself was very high. Right. So I learned how to channel into me, erm, at an early age, so when everybody else would be partying or people would be asleep in the dorm, I was up at five in the morning running stairs, you know, getting ready for the season. Mmm. In college, the basketball season. So I kind of took, well not even taken, I, I’m actually wired to, to be self motivated. So if I see that somebody has something in them, I feel like if I have the tools to help them get to that space, have the obligation to give you, if I genuinely care about you as a friend or as a family member, I’m going to give you this information so you can be great.  Um, so saying all that to say, so like when I got called to work with Justin for the first time before I met you, I meet with them in the first thing I say to them, this is a true story. The first thing I say to him, I said listen, before we start this meeting, let me tell you who I am. I don’t care about being seen next to you on TV, film, magazines, tabloids, anything. The only thing I care about is if you take this serious. I say, because I am very competitive and if my name was attached to you, I’m going to make sure I pull whatever’s out of you. I’m going to pull it out of you to be great. I said because of what I think thats inside of you. You have the opportunity and hear me when I say this, the opportunity to be one of the best people in music history. If you take this serious, I said, you have to come to a world where you make it. You have to make a guy like me, like you. And he’s only there because he has to bring his girl that he come see you and he’s mad. That he’s there to watch you, So I say, so whenever we do in the gym, we’re at rehearsal, dance rehearsal. If it takes you a hundred times a thousand times to get a dance step, right? You want to do it a thousand times still you get it right. Thats it. Because you don’t have the luxury to mess it up and that’s it. And , I said, so when you see that guy, he’s looking at you like this <inaudible> you have to get that guy to move. And I told him, I said, you can get that guy to move. You get the world to move. You hear me when I say that? If you get that guy to move, you can get the world to move 

Um, did you write that down? Literally one of my all time favorite ways to lock in an incredible performance is to lock in on one person. The one person that’s not feeling. It’s a game. Of course, I don’t know actual voodoo or like mind trickery, but after hundreds and hundreds of shows, I became able to get at least a smile and a step touch out of even the most unenthusiastic concert goer or chaperones as I like to call them. They’re the ones giving off the, Oh no, no, no, no, no. Um, I’m not here for you. I’m here for my girlfriend or my daughter or my wife or whoever. Okay. Don’t get me wrong though. There is something very, very moving about a room full of screaming fans, but if you can make the not a fan move, Oh my gosh, it feels like winning the lottery. It is incredible. Although I have never actually won the lottery, so maybe that’s not the right analogy. Also, I’ve never actually bought a ticket. I’m getting off topic. Okay, we’re back. Okay. Let’s get back into working out with Jason and the three words that changed my dance life forever.  

I remember a lot of our workouts. I remember your pushup routine that I still do occasionally. I remember you bench pressing me as your weights. I remember, um, frog jumps. Is that what we call it? I don’t remember. I got so ridiculously sore that I couldn’t dance and I had to like dial it back. But this one moment it was not workout related. This one particular show during the 20/20 experience, um, I was, I think I was under the weather. I was either like physically sick or maybe homesick. I don’t, I don’t remember exactly what I was going through. But I came to you as I often did and I was like, yo, Jay help me get through this show. Like what is going to get me through the show tonight? I don’t, I don’t, I need fuel, I need juice. And you said “You only have three things that you need to worry about in this show. Three that is all, hips, lips and fingertips. And it sounds silly, but within that confined I found tremendous freedom. So by cutting my mind off from the things that were distracting me and focusing it on just three things. I was able to go so deep on hips, lips, and fingertips, and it was just so liberating. I think I delivered one of the best shows of my life that night. Um, what other wisdom might you have for people that are feeling less than.And that can help us focus into being more than. 

Well, my motto is I’ve been saying that since I was a kid. If you stay ready, you don’t have to get ready. Because you have to be prepared for whatever’s thrown at you in this entertainment business at all times. You know, you’re gonna have random sleep. You know, you’re gonna have random food. You know, you don’t know if the hotel beds going to be comfortable, well, you don’t know. Did she just prepare for anything? If your show was two hours long, then we’re training for three hours? The main thing is to get your mindset ready for anything. This is always my answer is always do you have to program your mind to already be ahead of whats about to happen to prepare yourself for anything. If you’re the sports team and the star players coasting everybody on the team is not going to give that kind of effort. You have to give the effort to set the example.

I think that’s an important note because not only for the leader or the the front man of the group, but for everybody in the group because you’re leading somebody, whether you know it or not, someone is looking to you for the tone, for the vibe, for the energy. It might be a fellow dancer on stage or it might be somebody in the audience. I think setting a bar, setting a high bar is so important. It’s why people are drawn to you. It’s why I was drawn to you. It’s why we’re still friends and I just, I can’t thank you enough for being so excellent.  

So being somebody that’s so, uh, face to face with popular culture all the time, do you have any recommendations for how to drown out the noise in terms of what people should be and how to reinforce all the lovely things that we are 

The biggest thing I would tell people is to understand your inner voice. And what I mean by that is the only person that knows what’s really going on in your head is you. And if you understand the field, or the business that you want to get into. Meaning, something tangible that can work in this space and you know your work and you really understand what it is then don’t listen to anybody but yourself. Your intuition is never ever wrong. It’s something that we are born with, that we have inside of us that connects us to everything that’s happening around us.  And if you really understand it and you really listen to it, you understand how much you’re in tune with the world and other people. But you have to be open to receive it. If you’re not open to receive it, then you’ll miss it. Listen to yourself. No. Then if you put a really, if you put your mind to something, you can do it with no problem. You just have to understand that it’s not going to be, nothing is a cake walk. There are very few people that are like  gifted to do certain things. It just give a born to do that thing and there’s nothing you can do about it. There’s just, there were born to do that thing. They were built for that thing. Body’s constructed for that thing. Their mindset, their feet, their hands, everything about it was built or that thing.  Most of the people have to work towards that thing. Even though you understand that you might have to work towards it. But some people are just gifted to do that thing. You know, it’s like by Kobe Bryant, his passing, he was built to play basketball. Everything about his body was built for that sport. It wasn’t built to play football. He was good for the sport of basketball. Michael Jordan, the same way. Certain people are just built for that sport. No. Um, and then you have an exception to the rule. Mmm. Like 

There’s always an exception

Ryan Williams who’s know, six, seven, six, eight 285 pounds. He looks like a defensive lineman and he jumps like he’s 160 pounds. It doesn’t make sense. So you have those anomalies every once in a while. But again, that’s just a gift that they’re born with. But most people, again, I understand it’s something you really have to study it.  If you want to, you know, learn how to be a great dancer, then you study with other great dancers. If you want to be a great artist, study with great artists, you have to be around people who are great, In order to observe, greatness, unless you’re just a freak of nature and you just born with that gift of whatever that thing is that you’re doing know. So like when my, my godson, who’s an artist, right? The only person who’s want to teach them showmanship is you like, you’re on what you’re already on. Are you already on my list of people who are going to be part of his team? Because because of what you are, he needs what you are. He needs you to teach him. That’d be a certain way on stage because he doesn’t know. Mm. Yeah. He can move. He has natural talent. He can dance, but he needs YOU.. 

Yeah, I am flattered and you know exactly where to find me.  

It is really, really cool to see how far time, talent and connections can take someone because over the years that I’ve known you, you’ve been so many different things to so many different people. I cannot wait to meet music producer Jason. I cannot wait to watch the movie that you wrote and produced and or directed. I cannot wait for the world to see these things. I’m just so happy to put you in touch with a part of my world. Introduce them to you because you’ve really helped mold me into what I am today. Thank you so much for doing this. 

You don’t have to thank me. You know i’d do anything in the world for you. I’m your family. You already know that, so thank you. I appreciate it. I’m glad I could help you. 

Oh by the way, I have on the podcast, I have a a sign off line. My sign off is “keep it funky.”

Oh, I like it keep it funky. 

Yeah. Okay. Keep it funky everybody. I’ll see you next week. 

Good. If You smell something, It’s just Dana.